North Hollywood Bank Robbery Shootout

[twoblink]

I just watched the movie, 44 Minutes, the North Hollywood Shootout.

What amazed me about the movie is..

Absolutely NOT A SINGLE RIFLE... There were a few shotguns, but not a single rifle..

They talked about the AK like the 7.62Commie is the end all be all, it's not.. I can only imagine if there were 5 guys, with 308's who were tactically compotent and had better position and didn't wait for 8 minutes to be surrounded by 50+ cops.

I absolutely am not shortchanging the officers; but I have to question, how is it that there was not a single, even remotely head grazing shot? I'm sure when someone is spraying an AK at you, the entire ball game changes, But I'm just wondering if the officers were aiming for center of mass the entire time, or a head is just that difficult to hit?

Someone needed to get on the rifle.. Just incredible..

2 guys with AK's outgun 50+ LAPD's... And LAPD is one of the largest police forces in America. I can only imagine, 5 guys with 308's who have some sort of tactical training, some cover, and were on the communication bands, working together. They'd make 50+ police officers look like a joke I suspect..

I was both amazed by the movie as well as disturbed..

 

[LadySmith]

Poor Aim, Perhaps

One of the police higher-ups was yelling orders, "Go for the head! Shoot for the heads!" But the cops couldn't hit them. They managed to hit one perp in the neck & he bled to death in the street (his family sued). It seemed like they were relying way too much on SWAT to come rescue them. I didn't like the part in the movie where the cops go to a gun store for rifles & one said something like, "Just anybody can buy one of these?"

 

[twoblink]

Yeah, I noticed the comment as well..

B&B has since closed. I use to shop there a lot, and I have spoke to the owner there before, and he said, it was crazy..

There were a lot of other comments he made that I'll keep off the record.

But as for me, I am surprised how little most officers know about guns.

Natedog and any other 16 year old on THR knows probably more than most LEO's.. That's SAD.

In the beginning, the guy remarks that something like 90% of all officers never had to draw and shoot in the call of duty.. That's sad.

Couple that with what I see on CSI, where Nick Stokes didn't qualify the first time, (lack of range time I assume) and it just makes me wonder how "well prepared" and "well trained" some LEO's are.

It's not LEO bashing, I have a lot of friends who are LEO's and well trained, but I have to admit, some don't make the shiniest of examples for our boyz girlz in blue.

I was wondering how these guys can get in a car, and roll at slow speeds without an officer thinking, of ramming them... I would have...

Also, I was wondering if I was one of the residents, and someone was shooting in MY NEIGHBORHOOD... What the law says about me picking them off from my balcony with my M1A...

If someone was shooting my MY general direction with total disregard for my life... you can expect returnfire..

 

[c_yeager]

In the beginning, the guy remarks that something like 90% of all officers never had to draw and shoot in the call of duty.. That's sad.

Well, personally i prefer living in a society where the cops don't have to use deadly force very often. Idealy they would never have to do so.

 

[twoblink]

I hope 100% never have to draw..

BUT.. if they do, I hope they are well trained to do so...

 

[Steve in PA]

"In the beginning, the guy remarks that something like 90% of all officers never had to draw and shoot in the call of duty.. That's sad."

This is sad???? Please explain to me how the fact that an officer can do his job without pulling his weapon....or having to shoot his weapon is sad??? Please I can't wait to hear your words of wisdom on this!!!

"One of the police higher-ups was yelling orders, "Go for the head! Shoot for the heads!" But the cops couldn't him them."

Yeah, I wonder how many of you keyboard comandoes would have been able to take a head shot at rifle or shotgun distances on a moving target, while the target is firing back with a full-auto weapon!!!

 

[WEPS]

 

[DT Guy]

One of the scariest places on earth is a police qualification line...

Here are some quotes:

When we were give 30 seconds to put six shots C/M at 3 yards (!)

"Why are you shooting so fast?"
"I'm trying to be realistic."
"What do you mean, 'realistic'?"
"Well, how would you shoot if there was a guy arms reach from you that was going to kill you?"
"Oh...."
Long pause, then...

"Bang, bang, bang, bang...."

Unbelievable.


Larry

 

[twoblink]

This is sad???? Please explain to me how the fact that an officer can do his job without pulling his weapon....or having to shoot his weapon is sad??? Please I can't wait to hear your words of wisdom on this!!!

This is SAD because they showed (at least in that situation) that because of this high percentage, they seem fairly complacent, and their skills were rusty at best.

This isn't sad i.e. "I wish they drew more often", I guess sad isn't the word I'm looking for..

It's like saying, there's a 1 in 400 chance I'll get into a car accident, so I'm not going to wear my seatbelt.

By their own admission, a lot of officers said they were ill-prepared.. That's what's so sad..

Again, I hope nobody draws.. But 50 cops, 2 guys in plain view, standing without cover..

Before someone gives me the "You think you can do better huh?" line, I probably can't, but then again, it's NOT MY JOB. If it were, I'd probably could do better, or I'd certainly put much more effort into it.

When I went for training.. The instructor said, whenever you hear me say "BANG!" I want 2 bullets into the target!" I was mentally stressed, and when he yelled, I drew, shot, and fired 2 rounds. The target was about 7 feet away. I hit absolutely NOTHING. Next 5 shots, only managed 1 out of 5. So I know how tough it is to shoot under stress. But by the 8th day, I was dumping bullets into the targets while under stress. So it's a training thing that's really bothered me..

Words of Wisdom: "Get them more training.."

 

[Old Partner]

I and a number of my friends were watching some police try to qualify here recently and we could not stop laughing. One officer drew his gun and it flipped up and out away from him about 16 feet. The rest could not hit anything at all. We told them that the safest place to be when they were shooting was out in front of them. Strangely, they did not appreciate that comment at all...

 

[Bwana John]

I saw the whole thing live on TV. I dont think that your everyday cop should be required to handle this sort of thing. This situation required a military mindset, not a civilian one. Im thinking that its a good thing they didnt have RPG's.

Sort of like high speed chases, sometimes you let them get away for the greater public good.

I like my cops as cops, not as high speed, low drag, kick a$$ and take names kind of stormtroopers, that is a job for our military, who SHOULDENT have to funcion as cops.

I do think cops should be issued rifles.

 

[Machinist]

twoblink

''Also, I was wondering if I was one of the residents, and someone was shooting in MY NEIGHBORHOOD... What the law says about me picking them off from my balcony with my M1A...

If someone was shooting my MY general direction with total disregard for my life... you can expect returnfire.''

Good post, I agree.

 

[Steve in PA]

All hail to all the "expert" shooters and tacticians on these boards

Oh how I wish they would come out from behind their keyboards and save humanity.


PS. "get more training" means need bigger budget.

 

[Rickstir]

My BIL is a ST.Louis LEO. He has been on the force for almost 30 years. When he grew up, there were no guns in his house. He spent 2 years in the Army and that was his exposure to firearms. He has never drawn his weapon. He is still a partolman. Elected to be one of the masses and not try to move up the ranks, although nearly everyone he went to the academy with did. I asked him the other day when he was going to retire. "Why should I do that", he asked, "I have a cushy job and the captain leaves me alone". He is the coffee runner and drives the captain to all the political crap. For almost his entire carreer, he has been in the 2nd district, AKA the retirement home.

 

[Langenator]

Also, I was wondering if I was one of the residents, and someone was shooting in MY NEIGHBORHOOD... What the law says about me picking them off from my balcony with my M1A...

In most states, justifiable homicide includes using lethal forces to save the life of a third party, in this case the cops.

 

[ny32182]

I'll freely admit up front that I am looking at this from a keyboard commando perspective just like 99.9999% of the rest of America.

However, after studying the incident, my personal feeling is that the North Hollywood shootout exposed the weakness and unpreparedness of the upper brass, rather than that of the officers on the street. Bottom line is, either the officers on the street should have had AR-15's in their trunks, or SWAT should have arrived, prepared, in a MUCH more timely fashion, or both. These are all factors that are not in a beat cop's control... only the brass can address those issues. One guy on the scene with an AR could have ended the situation in a matter of seconds.

Also, the cops on the scene were getting hits... just not headshots. The perps were on drugs, and were wearing multiple layers of body armor. I believe it was determined after the standoff was over that the perps had each taken over a dozen hits from 9mm handgun rounds, and through a combination of drugs and very poor penetration through the layers of body armor (over their entire bodies... legs and all) they were not stopped.

I think it is very difficult for anyone to say how they would shoot under stress until they are actually doing it. Anything else is pure speculation.

About trying to pop the perps from your balcony... keep in mind that the search for suspects was still on well after the standoff ended. Cops are not going to take kindly to unknown fire coming from behind them. My money would be on offering the use of your rifles to the police as the better overall idea.

Also as has been said, its a good thing the perps didn't have a better escape plan than "continue firing thousands of rounds in random directions until dead".

 

[armoredman]

Three of my companies' armored trucks were on scene, and we found out more about the incident than was on TV. the movie 44 Minutes was inaccurate. Both rifles were illegally modified to fire full auto, and both perps had long rap sheets for firearms violence that would have kept them behind bars for a long time if the LIEBerals judges and lawyers hadn't tossed the gun charges, like they always do. It was a LIEberal anti-gunner who tried to shut down that gunshop for not making the cops wait the 15 days for the rifles....proof LIEberals anti-gunners want cops dead? Hmmm.
One of our trucks sheilded the SWAt team, another handed out Mini-14s to roadblocks, and another showed up right after the incident was over. I still don't know why they didn't roll up on the guys and flatten them with the rig, or at least use the gun ports. Yes, those rigs ARE rifle bullet resistant. Yes, the BGS were wearing cut up vests over their entire body.
It is a freakin' miracle only the BGs got killed, one by his own hand.

 

[S Roper]

"I'll freely admit up front that I am looking at this from a keyboard commando perspective just like 99.9999% of the rest of America."

So only about 300 Americans are more than "keyboard commandos?"

 

[ny32182]

"I'll freely admit up front that I am looking at this from a keyboard commando perspective just like 99.9999% of the rest of America."

So only about 300 Americans are more than "keyboard commandos?"

Anyone who wasn't there shooting/directly involved is offering their opinion from an observer's perspective, yes.

 

[MrMurphy]

I watched that all live on TV. Friend of mine was delivering some doors down there in N. Hollywood, he had driven through the engagement area 10 minutes before it went down (the next stop had a TV on and he went "HOLY CRAP!").


In the Texas Tower incident in Austin back in the days, when that guy opened up on everyone in sight, apparently everybody called the cops saying "we got deer rifles, need 'em?" and the cops had everyone with a rifle anywhere near, bring them and just open up on the tower to make him keep his head down... so you had .30-06s, .300's, .308s, .30-30s, etc all cranking rounds off at this guy as the two cops went up the inside of the tower.

If I had been closer to N. Hollywood, I'd have brought my Lee-Enfield. A .303 FMJ will certainly do a job on vests!

 

[C. H. Luke]

"I still don't know why they didn't roll up on the guys and flatten them with the rig, or at least use the gun ports."

Good Point!

 

[femoralis]

The BG did have body armor on their legs.

 

[Dbl0Kevin]

All hail to all the "expert" shooters and tacticians on these boards

Oh how I wish they would come out from behind their keyboards and save humanity.


PS. "get more training" means need bigger budget.

Steve let's be honest here. I won't speak for you, but I know MANY officers that do NO training on their own and only fire their weapon for qualification every 6 months. There are a good number of guys who are not "gun guys" and could really care less about their sidearms or what long gun they have in the car. When I was in the academy I had a lot of prior experience in firearms and tactics and instead of earning praise it got me the nicknames "Tackleberry" and "Psycho". Funny thing though when it came to the range there were only a couple guys who could even compete with me.....and the only one who outshot me was a former Delta Force soldier.

It saddened me to see the massive "head in sand" attitude of a lot of the guys and I would argue with them constantly about being better prepared and training more. Alas I was more or less banging my head up against a brick wall. :banghead:

 

[Tom Servo]

I talked to an Atlanta officer about that incident a couple of years ago. They're required to watch the film as part of their training. It was presented to him as a "what went wrong" scenario.

The poster who said it was the shortcoming of the "brass" and not the responding officers is 100% right. Same as with the Miami shootout in 1985, the officers just didn't have the equipment they should have, and they hadn't been trained for this at all. They were sent in undergunned and ill-prepared.

First off, they were only equipped with short-range weapons, and the perps had prepared for this. There's no way a .38 special or 9mm out of a 3-4" barrel is going to do ANYTHING to body armor at 50+ yards, and likewise with a shotgun. Several officers had to go to a nearby gun shop to commandeer rifles so they could respond effectively.

The main lesson they learned from these two incidents was that the police had to learn to start thinking in military terms about some of the situations they'd come across. Equipment and tactics have changed a great deal since then (we had a simliar situation in Atlanta a couple of years ago, and it ended in 20 minutes with only a couple of injured officers), so at least the "brass" have learned something from this. These incidents were the main reason the .38 has been replaced with more powerful, high-cap autos.

FWIW, I've seen documentaries on both incidents, and the responding officers are about the bravest guys I've ever seen. The fact that they didn't stand much of a chance makes it tragic, but at least they've learned.

 

[P95Carry]

Double aught - you posted much what had crossed my mind.

Steve is right - up to a point - but I do think individual cops owe it to themselves and their safety to do some extra training for selves. I appreciate budgetary restrictions are ever present but - we have a coupla cops at club who shoot IDPA and train/practice as well ... they are of course enthusiastic sportsmen as well as just cops. They are aware that their std training leaves things lacking a bit and so, they add to it and build on it.

I guess what I'd like to see is the regular cop being encouraged to join a club and actually hone his skills ... for benefit of all.