North Hollywood Bank Robbery Shootout

[Double Naught Spy]

Don't you just love it. LAPD claimed then and as noted on the link above that they were outgunned by 2 gunmen. That is just amazing to me how you can have 350 armed and mostly mobile officers (those not already shot and downed, or those not pinned down by fire) be outgunned by 2 gunmen. Granted, as I recall only about 40 or so officers actually exchanged fire with the gunmen, but still, LAPD had an overwhelming force, were more mobile, and were able to keep the gunmen flanked.

You can't blame SWAT on their tardiness so much as they responded by the book. SWAT has not been a great resource for implementing immediate elite fighting officers into a situation. Generally, they first have to be rallied, gear up, arrive on scene, assess scene, determine action, assign duties, implement action.

The American public simply is not ready to accept the notion of, and pay for, crack police troops to be suited up and on-call 24/7 to respond to intense situations like North Hollywood. In additional to that, the American public is not willing to pay for having multiples of such teams in place, strategically stationed around the our cities like firestations are situated with teams ready to go 24/7. Obviously, in larger areas such as LA, one team ready to go could not be stationed to respond equally fast to all parts of the city, hence the need for SWAT stations, like fire stations.

Given LA traffic and size, and given the fact that there was not a SWAT on standby, their response was pretty darned good. Where I think the system really broke down was in the time delay before SWAT was summoned. It was determined very early on that the gunmen had body armor and full auto weapons and were unleashing a lot of rounds. You have to wonder why that such attributes were not enough to summon SWAT sooner, but it took a while before SWAT was called.

 

[Shane333]

As a related side note:

I was driving over the Sierra Nevada a little while ago and multiple accidents on the Freeway stopped traffic for hours. While stopped, I noticed that a nearby parked Highway Patrol vehicle had an AR15 or M16 between the front seats.

I don't know about local police departments in CA, but the CA HP seem to be improving the firearms available to their troopers.

 

[carpettbaggerr]

It appeared they were separated by 40 yards or so. Making a hit, with a pistol, on a moving head or leg would be a minor miracle.

Maybe. But it can be done if you're well trained.

From the Ayoob Files:

Case Six took place a few years ago in the Pacific Northwest. An airman "went ballistic" at Fairchild Air Base and opened fire on personnel with his privately owned semiautomatic AK-47 clone. Air Policeman Andy Brown raced to the scene on his patrol bicycle. He dismounted to face the deadly threat, a reported 78 yards distant.

Armed only with his M-9 service pistol, he opened fire. Despite the exertion of racing to the scene, his aim was steady. The high-velocity, flat-shooting NATO ball rounds hit the crazed gunman in the chest and in the head, according to reports, dropping him instantly and fatally.

Do the Air Police have a larger training budget than the LAPD? Or do you think maybe he's done some practice on his own time?

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_152_25/ai_72293265/pg_2

 

[Arc-Lite]

Shane333...the California police in most cities and, Highway Patrol...now carry the surplus M-16 rifles and multi mags...on a every day basis for serious exchanges..finally saw the light...about the drag...of being out gunned...by 13 year olds. Just a short amount of time...till this will be normal....with most departments... Arc-Lite

 

[jdseven1]

The way the guys with the aks were firing I would be trying to keep my head down. I think most people would not take aim like at the range just put out some return fire. One good thing only the bad guys were killed. Anyone know how many rounds were fired???

 

[Double Naught Spy]

On hitting at distance being difficult with pistols...

Maybe. But it can be done if you're well trained.

Um, right. If you are properly trained you can do a lot of things that the general masses can't normally do.

LAPD officers were some of the better trained officers as a group, but their pistol training did NOT include any sort of extensive pistol shooting at extended distances, such as greater than 30 yards. Some officers may have had such training or been proficient otherwise, but they apparently weren't at the fight or were not in a position to make such shots. Somebody can correct me on this, but I seem to recall their pistol qualifications only including a few shots at 25 yards, the other shooting for the qualifications being at distances much less than 25 yards.

Why the focus on shorter ranges? Simple. Those are the distances the officers will most often be shooting if they end up shooting and a lot of officers never even fire in the line of duty. For specialty situations, they have specially trained officers, SWAT officers, only SWAT isn't readily available.

We sensationalize the N. Hollywood bank robbery as it happened in recent times and was well publicized. Strangely in 1980, a similar incident occurred, but few people recall it. One officer did die and a police helicopter shot down (disabled and had to land). http://vbpdofficer.tripod.com/norco.htm There were several similarities. For example, the robbers had 'assault' type rifles, shot up cops, had their vehicle disabled and stole a truck, and even shot at the helicopters.

 

[itgoesboom]

Okay, I think there are a few things that everyone can agree on.

1. Hindsight is 20/20.

2. Police are not trained to make headshot out at 75 yards, while being shot at, and having no effective cover.

3. The police where out gunned. No officer could close the distance to effectivly fire his weapon. There was little to no real cover, until those armored trucks showed up.

4. Many Police officers showed great heroism that day.


I think there are also a lot of things that we forget. A lot of things were going on in the haze of battle, and the officers present didn't even have the full picture.

It was clear that the two shooters were on a suicide mission, I remember thinking that as I watched it happen live. Now, it is not a stretch of imaginiation to think that they might have had explosives in there vehicle. There was no way for the cops or anyone else to know if they had explosives or not. They didn't even know how many gunmen there were. Initial reports said there was more than just the two.

Now, imagine being on scene, as it is happening. You don't know how many gunmen, you don't know if they have explosives.

All you know is that 12 people have been wounded, the BGs have body armor, and are very well armed with F/A weaponry.

Now, not knowing if they have explosives or more people waiting in ambush, would you be willing to drive that armored van over to try and run over?

I.G.B.

 

[carebear]

I assume you mean on an obscured or moving target, cause I worked at a 25 yd. indoor range for several years and slow fire, standing pistol shots at 75 feet don't take much effort. Throw in a rest and you should be able to keep a reasonable group all day long.

Now you moving, them moving, while they're returning fire? Sure, that's a bit different, but you still have the environment to search for rests and, if they are engaging 50 of your buddies in damn near a 360, it isn't like they'll be concentrating on suppressing you. One little head in rollover prone beneath a bush isn't the most eye catching of targets in that scenario.

 

[armoredman]

Now, not knowing if they have explosives or more people waiting in ambush, would you be willing to drive that armored van over to try and run over?

Knowing what I do know about the truck, (full size truck, not van) in question, yes, no problem. They don't pack enough bang in thier pockets to pop a door on ATS rigs.

 

[Arc-Lite]

.... they kept contact, at a safe distance.. with the shooters....this was the goal after seeing they were out gunned...keep them engaged... and wait for help...they did open a sporting goods shop....and then it was a rifle to rifle fight....also the copters keep an eye...on the one who made his way off... and tried to get a truck....this was the spot...of this all coming to an end.... the police were out gunned...and the shooter had NO where to go...the police bought time, and it worked..... this time. Arc-Lite

 

[itgoesboom]

Armored man,

But what about an IED in their vehicle?

They can pack enough explosives in there to do plenty of damage, and they were standing next to it during much of the encounter.

Still confident in driving that truck up to them?

I.G.B.

 

[carebear]

Would you care to try printing say, 6 out of 10 shots on a head, at, say 20 yds, from cover, while I try to shoot you in the head, with a rifle?

Falsy,

Sure, if you're in the middle of being engaged by 30-40 of my closest friends at the time.

As a single, discreet shooter, not standing up in the line of fire/sight, and shooting from behind low cover while my target is bullet-hosing a bunch of squad cars out in the middle of the street and taking fire from all angles. I doubt the shooter would be able to even notice I'm firing, much less afford the time to try and suppress me exclusively.

That'd be the shot I'd be maneuvering to take, circumstances permitting of course.

As far as driving an armored car at the bad guys, if I were cogent enough to think of it at all, I'd probably make the trade-off of a potential bomb vice taking THAT guy down right NOW. It is hardly a worse option than trading pistol fire versus a rifle.

 

[twoblink]

I can make headshots at about 50 yards with my .40SW after shooting about 30 rounds, and "inching" my way up to the target, and with careful, 6-10 seconds per round in between aim.

What does that mean? That means I can't hit a bloody moving head at 50 yards if I'm fired upon.

But 50 units on scene, the area was not well protected, (they drove at grandma speed away into residential areas!!)

Were there a lot of Hero's that day? Absolutely. Am I putting blame on the LAPD? Nope. Am I putting blame on some LAPD brass, oh you betcha..

I lived in LA for 20+ years of my life, 40 minutes response time in traffic like that is understandable.

From the stats given, accurate or not, 350+ officers on scene, 1500+ rounds fired from each side, and NOT A SINGLE BLOODY RIFLE FROM THE COPS. I don't care, even if the rule was only the captain has a rifle in the trunk of the car, that would have resolved the situation in the early stages.

I expect any AR or M1A to make a head shot from 100 yards, no exception.

Cops not trained? Err.. I am willing to bet 85% of those who have over 2000 posts on TFL/THR can make the shot, so "ill trained" is not an excuse IMHO. They can afford resources most of us can't.

My friend's comment was, "My 308 bolt plus my cheap $40 Tasco scope would have solved most of this.."

From the building across the parking lot, an M1A would have been only pushing about 300 yards or so. You don't need a headshot with a 308, just center of mass will do. The perps ran back into the bank for a while.. So it's not like there wasn't time! Also, the entire thing took place in 44 Minute.. No rifles in 44 Minutes??

 

[carebear]

Well then, we are really discarding the parallel to North Hollywood completely, aren't we?

Given those badguys, what I and many here are saying, is that a headshot response with a pistol was possible.

If we wanna play complete best case, and insert both of us into the scenario, we'd be pecking away at each other with rifles on semi. But then, neither of us would probably be robbing a bank in broad daylight.

(oh, and my friends would all have rifles with them anyway )

 

[jeffb]

On a more lighter side of things...

I enjoy various comedy... films, stand-up, etc... Anyways, I have a recording of Dennis Miller Live where David Spade made a pretty funny joke in reference to the one perp that bled to death and who's family sued the city...

"... one of them finally got gunned down at the end and he bled to death. So, the family of him is suing L.A. for 10 million dollars because the cops didn't help him fast enough. And I was like, "**** that guy." You know? Am I gonna run over there with a band-aid? I'm not. If I was the cop, right there, and I had a choice between calling the paramedics or calling my phone machine and checking my messages..." *laughter and applause*

Hopefully that'll lighten things up.

 

[Destructo6]

Armed only with his M-9 service pistol, he opened fire. Despite the exertion of racing to the scene, his aim was steady. The high-velocity, flat-shooting NATO ball rounds hit the crazed gunman in the chest and in the head, according to reports, dropping him instantly and fatally.

The bold portion is pure nonsense.

And, making a hit, which so happened to be a headshot, is quite a bit different than aiming for and hitting the head.

 

[Number 6]

I think one point that has been overlooked was that from interviews that I have seen one of the reasons the police were not overtly trying for headshots was that they were concerned about where their bullets would land if they missed and were concerned about hitting an innocent victim. I am not saying that the police did not miss when they were aiming at the chest, but more that they have a reasonable chance of hitting them in the chest, compared to a very slim chance of hitting someone in the head.

 

[carebear]

Well, that'd be great if innocents weren't getting sluiced down by full-auto fire the whole time anyway.

The best way in that scenario to end the killing was to shut down the attackers, more ineffective shots to the chest were just throwing good lead after bad, attempting headshots would have at least vastly increased the chance of taking them down quicker.

In that case, attempting to minimize misses, if that was the idea, was counter-productive.

 

[LadySmith]

Reply to Steve in PA

Quote:
"Yeah, I wonder how many of you keyboard comandoes would have been able to take a head shot at rifle or shotgun distances on a moving target, while the target is firing back with a full-auto weapon!!!"

Steve, my comment was about the movie, not real life. There is a difference (although the voices in my head sometimes say otherwise).
That was a joke, Steve.

 

[armoredman]

itgoesboom - why would bank robbers have an IED in thier getaway car? if this is a terrorism attck that's one thing, but this was a highly botched robbery. If they are packing a fertilizer bomb in a Ryder truck, I have no intention being in the same county with them , much less next to them in a truck of any kind, or M1Abrams main battle tank. Given what DID happen, and the low chance of high explosives, yes, I would still have been comfortable driving that rig up on them. I do mean up ON them - 3/4' steel ramplate will do some damage......

 

[carpettbaggerr]

The bold portion is pure nonsense.

A stylistic exaggeration, perhaps, but nonsense? And do you think it was luck he made several hits at 78 yards? Including a headshot? Or was it due to extensive practice?

I doubt the Air Police has more handgun training than the LAPD. Or requires their personnel to qualify at more than 25 yards.

But if this officer was in Hollywood that day, everyone would have gone home a lot sooner.

 

[Chipperman]

"The BG did have body armor on their legs."

From the Doco's I've watched, one had armor on the legs, the other did not.
The guy who was in the car most of the time did not have leg armor. When the SWAT team rolled up on him, he was shot several itmes in the legs.

 

[Destructo6]

Armed only with his M-9 service pistol, he opened fire. Despite the exertion of racing to the scene, his aim was steady. The high-velocity, flat-shooting NATO ball rounds hit the crazed gunman in the chest and in the head, according to reports, dropping him instantly and fatally.

A stylistic exaggeration, perhaps, but nonsense? And do you think it was luck he made several hits at 78 yards? Including a headshot? Or was it due to extensive practice?

Looks like 2 hits are listed to me, unless you have additional information that you didn't share. Why not try it for yourself the next time you're at the range? I, and friends of greater and lesser degrees of skill, have done a little playing with pistols at rifle ranges and I'm not particularly confident in anyone's ability to pull off such a shot under duress.

 

[Blackhawk 6]

I doubt the Air Police has more handgun training than the LAPD. Or requires their personnel to qualify at more than 25 yards.

I doubt the average Air Policeman could replicate that performance. I do not think it is fair to indict the LAPD because officers at North Hollywood could replicate this individual's perfomance.

The article fails to mention the number of rounds fired. While it mentions a round hitting the assailant in the head, it does not say the hit to the head was intentional. I believe it was more luck than skill that he hit him in the head.

No one can deny the airman made a couple phenomenal shots that day, but we have no reason to expect that kind of performance on a regular basis from any police officer. Do we redefine our expectations of police performance every time a there is a new phenomenal shot made? That hardly seems realistic or fair.

 

[carpettbaggerr]

The two men armed with AK-47's weren't concerned with fairness.

Head shots at over 40 yards are possible, even under fire. As the airman demonstrated. I'm sure he fired more than twice [twice = several btw] and walked the rounds onto the target. If the rifleman was wearing body armor, I believe the airman would have made multiple hits until an unarmored vital area was struck. I see no reason why several dozen LAPD officers couldn't do the same thing. Except for the fact that most do no shooting practice beyond what's necessary to qualify with their handgun.

Difficult? Yes. perhaps even exceptional. But not impossible. Bob Munden can make headshots at 100 yards with a snub-nosed .38 special. I would hope a large percentage of police could do the same at half the range with a full-sized service weapon.

But I doubt even 5% could shoot a 6 inch group at 50 yards.