Or maybe we can allow that there is enough room for people to like what they want, hold their own opinions (no matter if we agree or not), and not get wrapped around the axle over things that really don't matter.
The M1 Garand Rifle - Why Is It, "Heavy"?
- Thread starter Garandimal
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I will never understand the staff in this forum. It looks like the people who are disagreeing are doing so respectfully. I don't see anyone "wrapped around the axel." That's how a discussion happens. A conversation isn't a bunch of people agreeing with each other.
There are fair points being made on either side. Personally I'm learning a lot about the M1 garand from this conversation I didn't know.
That said, every time a disagreement happens, some staff member comes in flailing his arms and saying "WELL EVERYONE JUST LIKES WHAT THEY LIKE! THERE'S NO COUNTERPOINTS TO BE MADE!" and eventually closes the thread.
It's like you dudes wonder why this board is dying.
EDIT : Case in point , I wound up reading more about the M1 garand. I had no idea that it was a California compliant option (as seen here https://www.guns.com/firearms/rifle...1-rounds-22-barrel-9-3-lbs-black-new?p=247224 )
Definitely something I'm going to keep in mind.
Well, since you brought it up. We add on average 100 new members a week. And have been doing so for a long time. So, dying...sure.
While I find the M1 to be very outdated and surpassed by newer and better firearms, there is nothing wrong with one having a soft spot in their heart for one. What I will never understand is why people feel the need to come in to a thread where folks are discussing their love for something, only to start telling them their firearm is crap. It's just bad form. If it were a discussion of how accurate one can be or a thread seeking opinions, then sure. But when it's just a discussion on why they like something, it's kind of tacky to wade in telling them the AR is cheaper, more accurate, and just all around better. No one asked for a debate.
But what do I know, I'm only the mod on a dying forum
WrongHanded
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Why is it "heavy"?
It's 9.5lbs, hard to put a scope on, and apparently can't handle modern factory ammo without being modified. Everything is relative, but I couldn't think of a good reason to keep my M1.
So a much better question is: When is an M1 the best choice?
It's 9.5lbs, hard to put a scope on, and apparently can't handle modern factory ammo without being modified. Everything is relative, but I couldn't think of a good reason to keep my M1.
So a much better question is: When is an M1 the best choice?
Yeah, I don't think so.
You might be able to fool the other dinosaurs on this website, but the analytics for it are publicly available. Anyone looking at those numbers and trying to sing a different tune is either out of touch with technology or being dishonest.
For the record, this site has less than 250,000 members on it (which is a very generous estimate from self-report data and most of your 'users' are guests) -- which speaks volumes about a forum that's been around for over like 20 years. That's not even getting into how many members are actually active versus people who make an account and never post, post a few times and never show up again, or are actually authentic users. So apparently your arithmetic is as bad as your reading comprehension because there's no way you're averaging "100 new members a week." I remember this site back when it was running VBulletin software.
Moreover, as a pretty active user on this website for the last few months, I've seen maybe 2 new members actually post. Most are people who have been here forever and (quite frankly) some of those guys are not very good representatives of your forum.
For all your preaching, this is one of the main complaints people have about this forum across the internet. Stop treating this place like a nursery.
Nobody is coming in here and "telling them their firearm is crap."
Nobody started a thread reading "this is why I like something please agree with me."
Nobody said "you aren't allowed to like that weapon." In fact, of the two people disagreeing, the one giving criticisms of the M1 explicitly said (and apparently repeated in other threads) that he doesn't dislike the M1.
...where are you even getting anything even remotely like that?
The OP was literally asking "are there no real men left anymore" and "is this too heavy?"
People gave nuanced answers based on the design of the rifle (warfare) and how that warfare has changed. Accuracy is part of that discussion, as is magazines versus clips, capacity, use, and how warfare has changed. Then you come rushing in here (like you do in every disagreement in the rifle forum) crying into your keyboard WELL PEOPLE CAN LIKE WHAT THEY LIKE!!! WHY ARE YOU ALL SO MEAN?!?!? HE LIKES THE M1!!!!! WHY WOULD YOU COME IN AND CONTRADICT HIM?!?!
That's not what what the OP asked.
For a gun forum it seems like the mods here are super concerned about rushing into every damn disagreement that happens here to protect someone's feelings from getting hurt. From what I can, most of the people contributing to this conversation actually were in wars. I'm pretty sure we can handle someone telling us they think a 100 year old firearm isn't adapted for modern warfare.
We're adults. Cut the snowflake mentality. We seriously don't need moderators coming in here and closing every single conversation where there's a disagreement to protect our feelings. I've seen you and you specifically do it before and it ruins the entire conversation. That's the whole point of this board. Nobody is being disrespectful. Let the people disagree. That's what a conversation is.
You know where mods are needed? When a bunch of members reached out to me about a scammer on your site. The mod I spoke with was very quick to do the right thing, but that's a bigger risk to your forum than someone getting their fooking feelings hurt.
But what do I know? You're a mod on the fastest growing firearms forum in the world or whatever.
I'm not a mod of the website with hundreds of new members every second or whatever but, here's a tip, how about we keep this thread on topic and about the M1 instead of making it about whatever imaginary argument you seem to think is going on.
Like anything, it depends on what you're doing. Not everybody has:
*The same budget
*The same training
*The same access to firearms technology (due to state and local laws)
I would argue the M1 is a very good choice if you're looking for a reliable combat tested semi-auto in a state (like California) that has severe restrictions on what semi-auto weapons you can legally own. However, you're going to expect to pay close to $2k for even a used one. There are still cheaper alternatives but I could ostensibly see the M1 as respectable choice in that situation.
As another person pointed out, the clips and ammunition are cheaper than the AR-15, but with the price of the rifle and raising ammo prices across the board -- the jury is still largely out to lunch on what's worth what.
All weird situations aside, my only major issue with the M1 in this case (that I don't think anyone else mentioned) is the internal mag capacity. If you've only got 8-round en bloc clip internal magazine.
...So if we're talking about having this thing for defense in a quasi-military situation and everyone else is holding 30....
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BigAlShooter
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I think opinions of the Garand are a great topic of discussion. How can a 70+ year old rifle still bring so many people to talk about what is best for a battle situation? Maybe it is because a heavy round and a "heavy" rifle still has its advantages.
I don't yet have a Garand, but I have one on order from the CMP and should have one in a few weeks.
I think the thread is about how modern soldiers or men today can't handle such "heavy" rifles. I agree that soldiers can still "handle" it no problem. It's not what is best. Can they handle it? Yes or no.
Yeah, they don't train to handle the heavy rifles, but I guarantee you they can learn to handle it. Maybe some can't, I don't know. But, most will adapt it and probably adapt it much better than you think.
This thread it not about what is best, its about can they handle it. I think they can. Just got to train with it.
I don't yet have a Garand, but I have one on order from the CMP and should have one in a few weeks.
I think the thread is about how modern soldiers or men today can't handle such "heavy" rifles. I agree that soldiers can still "handle" it no problem. It's not what is best. Can they handle it? Yes or no.
Yeah, they don't train to handle the heavy rifles, but I guarantee you they can learn to handle it. Maybe some can't, I don't know. But, most will adapt it and probably adapt it much better than you think.
This thread it not about what is best, its about can they handle it. I think they can. Just got to train with it.
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
I never made that connection. Every day I carry around 100 extra pounds of ass. Does that make me more of a man than a 160lb Marine?
A 10lb Garand is just that, a 10lb Garand. A 10lb AR has an optic, backup iron sights, laser, foregrip, weaponlight and a 30rd magazine. Not to mention it's shorter, readily adaptable, more ergonomic for fighting and suppressor-ready.
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CraigC
Sixgun Nut
Or we can knock a couple more pounds off and have something we can maneuver into and out of a vehicle with.
Phaedrus/69
Member
Phaedrus/69
Member
FWIW, although I have no real need for it I kind of want a PWS MK216 Mod 1 in .308/7.62x54. It's kind of funny in a sense; I'm no AR/M4 fanboy by any means. Hell, I got my first AR at age 41! Always kind of wanted one 'back in the day' but it used to be ARs were very expensive and made by only a couple makers while Mini-14s and AKs were cheap (an my LGS had a giant pile SKSs stacked by the door, selling for $99 each!). So as a broke kid in the 80's I had an AK and a Mini. Much later I finally got an AR. So I kind of came to the "platform" without many preconceptions. Some things it absolutely nails, IMO at least. Probably the greatest stroke of genius IMO is having the barrel and all the reciprocating mass inline with the stock. That's a really brilliant feature that minimizes muzzle rise and makes it very easy to run the gun, even when you get into bigger rounds in an AR10.
Ergonomics are also very good! It's hard to make a case for en bloc clips unless you're just taking the piss! I love the way the AR mags set and eject compared to rocking them in like the Mini-14 and AK. Everything just seems to fall where you can intuitively get to it. Especially in the modern AR variants with their light free floated Keymod and MLok rails. It's extremely easy to mount whatever you need and easy to get at it when you need to use it. Brilliant!
The only thing I find kind of off-putting is the charging handle. I guess I'm just more used to having a charging handle on the side, HK style. My Bren 805 takes most of the good features and leaves the very few things I don't like.
Wars aren't really won or lost anymore on the basis of infantry rifle choice, or so it seems. A good carbine/rifle makes life easier but if you took our troops M4s away and gave them Mini-14s, Steyr Augs, Valmets, Tavors or even AKs or Garands they'd probably still be able to do the job. As long as they still had reaper drones, A10s, artillery, M1 Abrams, Bradley and Stryker vehicles, helos, NVGs, etc. And high tech body armor and SoTA trauma care.
Ergonomics are also very good! It's hard to make a case for en bloc clips unless you're just taking the piss! I love the way the AR mags set and eject compared to rocking them in like the Mini-14 and AK. Everything just seems to fall where you can intuitively get to it. Especially in the modern AR variants with their light free floated Keymod and MLok rails. It's extremely easy to mount whatever you need and easy to get at it when you need to use it. Brilliant!
The only thing I find kind of off-putting is the charging handle. I guess I'm just more used to having a charging handle on the side, HK style. My Bren 805 takes most of the good features and leaves the very few things I don't like.
Wars aren't really won or lost anymore on the basis of infantry rifle choice, or so it seems. A good carbine/rifle makes life easier but if you took our troops M4s away and gave them Mini-14s, Steyr Augs, Valmets, Tavors or even AKs or Garands they'd probably still be able to do the job. As long as they still had reaper drones, A10s, artillery, M1 Abrams, Bradley and Stryker vehicles, helos, NVGs, etc. And high tech body armor and SoTA trauma care.
lysanderxiii
Member
Oh, by the way, the M1 is not that heavy at 9.5 lbs.
German Gew 43 = 9.7 lbs
German MP-44 = 10 lbs (empty)
German Kar 98k = 8.5 to 9.0 lbs, depending on the wood (solid wood or laminated).
British No. 4 = 9 lbs
Soviet Mosin Nagant = 9 lbs
German Gew 43 = 9.7 lbs
German MP-44 = 10 lbs (empty)
German Kar 98k = 8.5 to 9.0 lbs, depending on the wood (solid wood or laminated).
British No. 4 = 9 lbs
Soviet Mosin Nagant = 9 lbs
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AK103K
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So?
I was into all that too, as well as M1's, M14's, and anything else I could get my hands on to shoot, including reasonably priced SMG's, and cheap ammo to shoot them all with. Ahh, the 80's and 90's, the current good old days.
Well, if you want to keep things current and real.....
Using your prices, and current ammo prices....
four clips (32 rounds) loaded with 30-06 now costs around $72
One mag (30 rounds) loaded with 5.56/223 now costs around $31.50
And if youre running around blasting, or even if you arent, its a lot easier to retain/recover those "pricey" (I just bought a bunch of new Korean AR mags a few months back for $6/ea., and they are actually better built than the GI mags) AR mags than trying to find the clips the M1 whats to chuck everywhere.
You also don't have to stop and reload three times with the AR to get the same basic round count.
AK103K
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Im thinking the real issue here is, the "average" US male is now a fat, out-of-shape C-Lolly, and any rifle would be a lot heavier than the X Box controller they seem to be used to.
And contrary to what you seem to constantly hear these days, 30-06 and .308 are not "kickers", no matter what you shoot them out of.
“I wish I needed three rounds to do what one 30-06 does.”"I wish I had 65% less ammo," said no one, ever.
One inexpensive part that takes 30 seconds to install lets an M1 shoot modern commercial ammo.
I read a sensible bit of advice recently - if you’re defending your rural homestead, an M1 is ideal. You’re not carrying it around, ejected clips stay nearby, and you can keep a ton of ammo handy.
If you’re think you’re going off to be a character in a Kurt Schlichter novel, trekking cross country to restore America, use an AR.
Sometimes you need a framing hammer, sometimes you need a sledgehammer.
Nature Boy
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While I sometimes ask myself that question given our current societal trends, as it relates to a standard load out for a modern light infantry soldier compared to his mid last century counterparts, carrying an M4 doesn’t make them unics
Yeah but you're comparing but a bunch of old rifles. Warfare has changed. You don't want to clear rooms with a German Gew.
I know people like to joke, but the average person is much taller and stronger now than they were 100 years ago. There's an obesity problem in the US but we're not taking obese soldiers. Infantry is regularly tape tested and PT tested. You do see some overweight soldiers but that's not something unique to modern times and all of those people are in support, non-combat roles.
This is basically the answer for the 'heavy' question. Soldiers are carrying so much stuff (even for a dismount operation).
I know you said you're in good shape but I'd kind of like to see you do a ruck march with an Army combat load for 20 miles with this heavy old rifle and then do the same thing next month with an M4. I think your opinion would change.
someguy2800
Member
Around the time the garand was accepted for service the ford flathead V8 was considered to be a very fast, powerful, and smooth engine. It made either 60 or 85 hp depending on model. If you put anyone in a 36 Ford today people would undoubtedly consider it to be a clunky unreliable and inefficient slug compared to nearly anything available today.
The point is that technology moves on and compared to modern rifles a garand is very heavy and has a lot of weight out toward the muzzle that people are not used to. That weight out toward the front as well as how fat they are in the hands makes them feel heavier than they are. Everything is relative to the point of reference you are accustomed too.
The point is that technology moves on and compared to modern rifles a garand is very heavy and has a lot of weight out toward the muzzle that people are not used to. That weight out toward the front as well as how fat they are in the hands makes them feel heavier than they are. Everything is relative to the point of reference you are accustomed too.
SunnySlopes
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If this dystopian fantasy becomes reality, it's game over regardless what you have. But, I digress.
I own a Garand for sentimental reasons. In military school, I fondly remember Sgt Major Sezak* making me run around the penalty track in the hot Florida sun with my Garand held up over my head.
And when I got my CMP Garand, like Pavlov's dog, I unconsciously lifted the rifle over my head.
I got all misty.
*Sgt Major was regular Army assigned by the Army to teach cadets the practical aspects of military service. ROTC, and all.
AK103K
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LOL.
And if the fantasy does comes true, and the power goes out, its over for many, all around. No more X Box, no more THR, just reality setting in, and people wishing they spent more time keeping the weight off and keeping up those shooting skills, than sitting in a chair and tapping keys and buttons on a computer.
That said, its a perfectly cool and sunny morning and Im off to start a new week blasting!
Can you smell it?! Feels like an M1 Carbine and 625 morning today. 296 and Unique in the air!
“I wish I needed three rounds to do what one 30-06 does.”
One inexpensive part that takes 30 seconds to install lets an M1 shoot modern commercial ammo.
I read a sensible bit of advice recently - if you’re defending your rural homestead, an M1 is ideal. You’re not carrying it around, ejected clips stay nearby, and you can keep a ton of ammo handy.
If you’re think you’re going off to be a character in a Kurt Schlichter novel, trekking cross country to restore America, use an AR.
Sometimes you need a framing hammer, sometimes you need a sledgehammer.
How is only having 8 shots "ideal" in a combat situation?
I know this isn't a SHTF forum so I won't digress, but I don't find that "advice" all that sensible.
LOL.
And if the fantasy does comes true, and the power goes out, its over for many, all around. No more X Box, no more THR, just reality setting in, and people wishing they spent more time keeping the weight off and keeping up those shooting skills, than sitting in a chair and tapping keys and buttons on a computer.
That said, its a perfectly cool and sunny morning and Im off to start a new week blasting!
Can you smell it?! Feels like an M1 Carbine and 625 morning today. 296 and Unique in the air!
Not to be that guy, but part of me really wishes that would happen.
Some people need a reality check.
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
Unless it happens at night, which it often does. Hope you got a roll of duct tape and your D-cell Maglite handy.
Boys, are you all into that panic buying stuff again? I was wondering where you all get those crazy prices from? I now can buy an AR or a Garand at the about the same price of $1400. If we could get rid of panic selling and if the U.S. could get back all of their Garands from Lend/Lease without political interference, both guns would be around $800 As for ammo, I can panic buy 30.06 ammo for a buck a round and load my own for 50 cents a piece. Most of my N-blocs I got for free, but had to buy a couple 5 rounders to legally hunt in MI. I had a Bushmaster 556 but it hated reloads and only shot sub MOA if I kept it squeeky clean, but my Danish Garand will shoot anything I can push through it and a little dirt doesn't seem to bother it at all.
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
I've been wishing that for years but I make a living tapping on this stupid thing. A long term power outage would be peaceful. Sort of.....
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Garandimal
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