The Most Effective Hollowpoint

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Nolo;

We have to make choices in how we defend ourselves and that which will work to stop an aggressor more readily most of the time.

Medical knowledge, cause and effect, understanding how the body works to stay up [ evolutionary in nature ] and running, denying even the inevitable conclusion [ stopping them sometime in the future through damage from the firearm ] all relate to the decisions we make in how we will train to defend ourselves.

I don't prefer to take the extra time to make perfect shots to the head or heart and then rely on prenetration and shot placement alone to stop an aggressor. It doesn't take into account why the body shuts down medically and how to hasten that along.

I'm perfectly happy when students can put 4 rounds into COM by the time they have come to full extension, than waiting for that extension to ocurr and trying to make a precise shot under a dynamically evolving SD scenario. Nice if you can get it, but when it happens it is usually more luck than skill. ITFTS students learn to shoot the instant the muzzle paints the bg's body and continue to put rds into COM using several skills available to them.

Brownie
 
What do people think of the Hornaday XTP rounds? You can buy them as cartridges, or as components to load your own. I currently have a couple of 40 S&W mags loaded with them, but they never come up when people ask about hollow points. Are they OK- as in generally excepted? I read the earlier post about how nothing is ever 100% certain.
 
What do people think of the Hornaday XTP rounds?

The difference in various loads is minimal within the top loads being produced, even among calibers, let alone the same diameter bullet. I don't think that load will work any better or worse than my own load.

Put em COM as fast as you can keep them COM [ anywhere on the torso will do ] without worrying about loads. Any good hollowpoint will do just fine if you do your part with nary any difference in outcome.

People have their pet loads from information they have gleened from various sources and their own reasoning behind it for carrying those loads. I'd concentrate on getting hits COM and often, while moving, worry more about taking one yourself and plan to keep em coming till the aggressor has stopped all aggressive behaviour toward you and is no longer a threat.

The Hornaday XTP should provide you a good opportunity to make em bleed deep, often, and continuous till it's over. Stopping power is not a result, nor based on where the rd hits, or it's energy, nor its bullet design. None of the above is "reliable" in stopping someone. It's always a crap shoot till it [ the stopping ] actually happens. It could take one or several rounds to effect a stop.

Brownie
 
There is no magic bullet. The slight edge one hollow point gives over another isn't going to make up for shot placement.

Any quality hollow point from any major manufacturer will do as far as I'm concerned. I do have preferences based on accuracy in a particular gun.
 
I currently load Remington Golden Saber in .45acp 230gr. I haven't had the opportunity to test all the premium hollow points, but the Golden Sabers feed reliably and hit to the same point of aim as my practice ammo.
 
Thanks for the replies, brownie0486- I know that it is a crap shoot till its all over. In reply to this, and the head shot comment earlier, a kid who I went to high school with was just shot in the face by a sniper in Iraq. He did require 7 hours of surgery, but he will hopefully make a full recovery. Going after the head seems like a nice idea, but definitely not a kill every time. I also could have told you that from hunting though. If you ever read a hunting magazine, how many times do you hear "the bullet did a perfect job, the deer only ran 20 or 30 yards, then quit"? Obviously we can't afford a BG to keep going for 20 or 30 more yards. My question was more a concern of known problems with the round, not if it was magic or worked every time.
 
Federal 9MM +P+ 95% guaranteed knock down power with one shot. That is a good proven stat from the armorer of my local police department.
 
The best thing you can do to radically improve the effectiveness of any HP...is to incorporate lateral or oblique movement into your firing sequence. Biologically, a heart shot (or multiples) still gives the organism 7-20 seconds of conscious voluntary control...you better be off the "X" while those HPs are taking their toll. Assume every shot failed to get it done and keep moving...until the threat isn't.

In light of that, any modern HP is fine in 9mm-45ACP. Speer GD, Rem Golden Saber, Cor Bon, Hydra Shok, Win SXT...go with the one that is most available in your area and works in your gun.
 
Hate to tell anybody that doesn't know, but that new Winchester Ranger stuff is not the same as the Ranger "T" series. The "T" stuff is law enforcement only pretty much. You can tell because in the stock/identification number (item number or whatever the hell it is), if it has a T in it, it's the "real" Ranger stuff. If not, then it's something that appears to be nothing more than a re-worked SXT round. If you like that, then that's fine. If not, just don't be fooled.

Example: The not so real Ranger ammo in 180gr. 40 will read: RA40180P. The real stuff will read: RA40T. Just for info, that's all.

Hell, I keep it simple, and just use golden sabers or gold dots.
 
Federal 9MM +P+ 95% guaranteed knock down power with one shot

I'd be seriously impressed if that load had knocked men down 95% of the time with one shot. I don't know of any load that knocks men down by the energy of the bullet itself, let alone more than 9 out of ten times.

Guaranteed? I'd be leary of anyone, let alone an armorer who would use words like guaranteed where a bullets performance is concerned.
 
The last part sounds more like more action hero movie talk than a realistic view of the use of handguns in self defense.
Click to expand...

Well, Last I checked the law doesn't look at any shooting different.
No matter where you shoot some one. No difference, in the head or the leg.
You still shot them. Therefor if you happen to have to pull the trigger, you might as well "STOP" them.

And if I want to be a movie star I'd be bragging about the 9mm.
Which you won't see me do. I'll take a .38 spl before the 9mm.
I can't stand the 9mm for that very reason. Not saying I don't own one.
But then who would pass up a KelTec P11 for 150.00?

Also I have read many times, buy MANY big game guides, you want penetration before expansion. All I know the Hollow point to be good for is expansion. Not saying that IF it will expand and penetrate not to use it.
But I'm pretty sure a .25cent FMJ bullet will perform as good as a 1.00 per round hollow point if it's put in the right place.

I didn't mean to sound "Harsh" but if you are looking to stop some one in one shot, I'd say statistically a head shot would be the best. I apologize to the person that started this thread.
As I didn't answer his question. I've learned my lesson I guess. If I can't provide an answer directly related to the original topic.
Then I won't reply at all.
 
I didn't mean to sound "Harsh" but if you are looking to stop some one in one shot, I'd say statistically a head shot would be the best.
Click to expand...
Quite obviously, my comments were more about the idea of the ease of people making a shot to the head in a self defense situation. I believe the police average for hits, and keep in mind they're going for central mass, is around 20%. You seem to treat the prospect of making a much more difficult shot like its likely.

Also I have read many times, buy MANY big game guides, you want penetration before expansion. All I know the Hollow point to be good for is expansion. Not saying that IF it will expand and penetrate not to use it.
But I'm pretty sure a .25cent FMJ bullet will perform as good as a 1.00 per round hollow point if it's put in the right place.
Click to expand...
I would say you're mostly spot on there. If the round has the oomph to penetrate deeply enough and still expand, it should be the obvious choice. I think your expectations for top marksmanship are unrealistic in these situations.
 
I'm a huge fan of the 45's stopping power...it will never be smaller than .45 even if it doesn't expand - it's a proven fight stopper. I also think that the Federal Hydroshok is one of the best HP bullets while there are so many that could perform. The TAP ammo is really good and the Winchester Ranger is really good stuff. I also have some Corbon PowRBall that is one heck of a +P at 568ft lbs muzzle energy!
 
it will never be smaller than .45 even if it doesn't expand
Click to expand...
I'm not sure this is really all that big a deal anymore either. There was a study in the 1991 Wound Ballistics Review Jounal by Eugene Wolberg where he checked out the real world performance of the 147 gr winchester load in those shot by the san diego pd. Out of 28 bullets that penetrated that soft tissue of the torso, the smallest diameter of the recovered bullet was .462" and the average was .541"

Also interesting to note is I often hear people say "12 inches? Who is 12 inches deep?" These people are failing to take into account that sometimes bullets pass through an arm first, that the attacker might have their body bladed, or that the bullet might not track straight through the body. It seems we expect its like just like poking in and touching the heart from the front of the chest but in reality its nothing of the sort. Penetration depth is seldom measured it seems but in this study the average length of the wound was 13.2" Two rounds had penetrated to 13.5-14.5" and were stopped just under the skin. Wolberg speculated that they could have penetrated more deeply but that the skin has a "holding in" effect. For as many times as I've read people say "12 inches is excessive penetration" i think its quite telling that out of 28 wounds the average is so high. The most shallow wound was 10", and the deepest was 17" Neither of those two were about to exit the body.
 
Right now any cartridge using a Barnes Expanding all-copper bullet. Solid copper with more penetration than a regular hollow point, but it expands to damage like a hollow point. It also isn't made of Lead, so if you have to shoot someone to defend yourself and somehow they survive and the police get them to the hospital, then you can use the fact that it's a non-lead bullet as an argument in court that you were indeed "shooting to stop" rather than to kill.

Barnes expanding bullets are used in the Cor-Bon DPX line, Federal's Vital-Shok with Barnes Expanders (not all Vital-Shok, just the ones with "Barnes Expanders" in the name), and others listed on http://www.barnesbullets.com/products/loaded-ammunition/. They also sell bullets for reloading.
 
Brownie, I know what you mean I was a non beliver when he first told me that. Then he took me out and showed me some stat's he had over the years since they went to that ammo. Then he showed me the shooting drills they are tought. Now I am a beliver. One shot 95% of the time was what I got with my math on his review. This guy knows his stuff. 10 years military weapons armorer and is a certified glock armorer and 20 + years in the Police depatment. He is an older guy that keeps up with his weapon knowledge. I promise you that this is awesome ammo and available to everyone
 
Yup, here we go again with a "What's Best" thread? Quite honestly, I don't
know what works best as far as expansion, penetration, etc. as I've never
conducted personal test with any ammunition. Different folks will weigh in
with their opinion; but exactly how many of these "arm chair shooter's"
have actually had too shoot someone in their lifetime? I tend to think
figure [within our membership] would be very small. So, to sum up- I
think shot placement is the key. If you are armed with a KEL-TEC .380
P3AT, and are able to place a shot to a vital organ; or disrupt a perps
central nevrous system, you should be O.K. This has been done many
times over the course of the last 100 years with the 230 grain FMC
round ball (G.I. ammo) fired from the .45 ACP~! :uhoh:;):D

FWIW, I now carry Hornady 230 grain T.A.P. JHP's in my .45's; and
the very secretive "Secret Service Load" from Federal in my 9m/m's.
 
The one you have in your gun that functions every time is the most effective JHP. Depends on the caliber but Corbon DPX, Win SXT and any good premium ammo will work.
 
My son and I just tried the new Federal HST round for both .40 S&W AND .45. We fired them from 15 yds. into gallon milk jugs full of water. Each jug was 6" thick and as I said FULL of water. The .40 CAME IN 165gr and penetrated to the point of breaking the near skin of the 5th jug with perfect expansion, almost twice the projectiles original diamater, core and jacket remained totaly intact, first 2 jugs were destroyed. Third and fourth minor damage.
The .45 came in 230+P, the exact same test was conducted. The round penetrated thru the 3rd jug enough to break the near skin of the 4th jug just enough to leak water. The round was again perfectly expanded, almost twice it's original size, core and jacket stayed together. We repeated this with over 30 rounds (a lot of milk jugs and water) and had the same results each time. We tried it with 165gr and 230gr (none at A +P rating) Hydra shoks and were VERY disapointed they penatrated to the point of 4 jugs and fell apart along the way starting at the 4th jug, the core ended in the 4th.
HOPE THIS HELPS.
 
I carry Hydra-Shoks in all of my weapons just because I always have. From everything I've seen, what I have is quite adequate. When you get down to arguing small percentage differences based upon certain conditions in one test, it really becomes a semantic argument.

Pick something and load it up. And hope you never have to use it.
 
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