The next time someone says mental illness causes crime...

[silicosys4]

their abuse of alcohol or drugs would play a FAR greater factor in their tendency to be violent than their mental illness would.

Bingo.

 

[HOOfan_1]

but i do believe a violent person suffering from mental illness is more apt to act on their violent tendencies, than they would be if they were healthy.

That's my opinion.

 

[JohnKSa]

I would like to see some research that has been published to back that up.

You're in luck. I posted a link in the post that you responded to with just such information.

Most of the people who are incarcerated for violent crimes have never been diagnosed with a mental illness.

That may well be true, but it's not really providing any useful information. Given that the general population is nearly 10 times greater than the number of people with mental illness, even if people with mental illness committed violent crimes at a rate twice that of the general population, we would still expect to see about 5 times fewer mentally ill people incarcerated for violent crime.

Example: Let's say that the ENTIRE world is composed of 110 people. 10 people out of the total population of the world are blue, the rest are green.

Out of the 10 blue people, 5 of them commit violent crime and get locked up. In other words, 50% of the blue people (half of them) commit violent crime.

Out of the 100 green people, 10 of them commit violent crime--that's 10% (a tenth) of them that get put in prison.

So we go to the prison and we see 10 green people and only 5 blue people. The temptation, based on the raw number of incarcerated people is to assume that green people are more likely to commit violent crime but that's a mistake. In reality, the blue people commit violent crime at a rate that is 5 times higher than the green people. 50% vs 10%​

The real question is whether or not people with mental illness are MORE LIKELY to commit violent crimes when compared against members of the general population. You can't just look at the raw numbers of incarcerated persons to do that.

Also, as I mentioned earlier, lumping all mental illnesses into one big basket and pretending that makes sense is ridiculous. As comedian Ron White says,

"You gotta quit grouping all crazy people together...

What does this crazy person do?"
"He rolls his turds into little balls and eats crayons."
"Fine I'll feed him for the rest of his life!"
"And what does this crazy person do?"
"Oh, he kills productive members of our society."
"Well he should of rolled his turds into little balls and ate crayons... because the penalty is much less... severe!"​

Obviously he's going for a comedic effect, but the point is well taken. Many types of mental illness have no effect on whether or not a person is likely to be violent, and I suppose it's true that some kinds even reduce the likelihood of a person being violent.

...now who is to say that their mental illness had anything to due with their violent crime?.....it seems to me that their abuse of alcohol or drugs would play a FAR greater factor in their tendency to be violent than their mental illness would.

You are partially correct. Based on the information in the link I provided, two things do seem to be true.

1. People with certain untreated mental illness AND who also abuse alcohol and/or drugs are more likely to be violent than people with those same untreated mental illnesses who do NOT abuse alcohol and drugs.

2. Even when one corrects for the alcohol and drug use based on comparisons with the general population, people with certain untreated mental illnesses still commit violent crimes at a higher rate than members of the general population--but at a lower rate than people with those same untreated mental illnesses who also abuse alcohol and drugs.

 

[danez71]

you also need to keep in mind that 20% of the population suffers from mental illness....so statistically, 20% of those that commit crimes are going to have mental illness right off the bat.....and chances are that 20% number is significantly higher due to people not being diagnosed/ seeking treatment.

I don't know of that stat is right and you didn't provide a source.... but let's assume it is for a minute.

That still means that 50% of the multiple victim public attacks are being committed by 20% of the people.

That isnt witch hunting.

Its statistics backed by data from qualified people in the field.

 

[CoalTrain49]

You're in luck. I posted a link in the post that you responded to with just such information.

Not much there on substance abuse.

 

[BSA1]

now who is to say that their mental illness had anything to due with their violent crime?.....it seems to me that their abuse of alcohol or drugs would play a FAR greater factor in their tendency to be violent than their mental illness would.

Let’s consider for a moment about what we know about alcohol.

Alcohol is the most commonly used addictive substance in the U.S. 17.6 million people, or one in every 12 adults, suffer from alcohol abuse or dependence along with several million more who engage in risky drinking patterns that could lead to alcohol problems.

More than half of all adults have a family history of alcoholism or problem drinking.

We know that one in five adult Americans have lived with an alcoholic relative while growing up. In general, these children are at greater risk for having emotional problems than children whose parents are not alcoholics. Alcoholism runs in families, and children of alcoholics are four times more likely than other children to become alcoholics themselves.

A child being raised by a parent or caregiver who is suffering from alcohol abuse may have a variety of conflicting emotions that need to be addressed in order to avoid future problems. Some of the feelings can include the following;

Guilt, Anxiety, Embarrassment, Inability to have close relationships, Confusion, Anger, Depression.

In other words many of the same feelings that folks with mental illness have. So is not probable that some crimes blamed on mental illness actually committed by people that have a family history of abuse alcohol and alcoholism or do so themselves. But mental illness sells the news better so it gets the blame.

Yet despite of all of these facts alcohol is legal, widely advertised, use is commonly portrayed on TV and in movies, easily available and affordable. Even the President promoted as drinking as a way to solve problems with others when he held a "beer summit" in the Rose Garden back in 2009.

 

[WestKentucky]

I think it's a missed target when people say mentally ill when referencing the people who commit certain violent acts. Troubled, sick, ill, etc are all descriptive words which point the right direction but totally miss the mark. People who commit large scale atrocities ARE often these things, but there is always more than just these things. Pent up rage, emotional instability, irrational thoughts, whatever it is that gets the best of these folks comes from somewh r re.

 

[chipcom]

If one is not deemed mentally competent to own a firearm, they should be institutionalized and not prancing around in public. Thus if one is mentally healthy enough to be prancing around in public, they are healthy enough to own a firearm.

I don't believe there is a correlation between mental illness in general and violence in general. I do believe there may be a correlation between the freakin drugs they force on those who are deemed to be mentally ill and violence.

 

[JohnBT]

I'm not quite sure what it proves, but an article in yesterday's Richmond paper noted that drug deaths from overdose outnumbered traffic deaths in Virginia last year.

Cars keep getting safer and people keep getting more self-destructive?

From a quick google search:

"articles.latimes.com/2011/sep/17/local/la-me-drugs-epidemic-20110918
Sep 17, 2011 - Propelled by an increase in prescription narcotic overdoses, drug deaths now outnumber traffic fatalities in the United States"

 

[Double Naught Spy]

JohnBT, there are going to be various reasons for that, not just that cars are safer, but that people in car crashes tend to receive medical treatment sooner and more often than drug overdoses which often go unnoticed until too late.

It may be should be pointed out that people with certain mental illnesses have troubles with properly medicating themselves.

 

[CoalTrain49]

It may be should be pointed out that people with certain mental illnesses have troubles with properly medicating themselves.

That's probably a much bigger problem than the illness itself. Those who self medicate themselves with illegal drugs and alcohol is a huge factor in their violent behavior. So far I've just seen stats on mental illness and violence. Wonder what you would come up with if you did some research on people who abuse drugs and alcohol along with being mentally ill. Are the drugs responsible for the violence or the mental illness, or both. Too many people leave the drugs and alcohol out of the equation when we all know it's a factor in too many cases.

 

[alsaqr]

US prisons are full of mentally ill inmates. i remember the warden of the WV prison, Donald Bordenkircher, making this statement:

"They take a mental case, thorazine his @$$, call him a behavorial case and throw him in prison".

 

[Schwing]

This is an interesting topic. I have a couple of seriously mentally ill family members. I won't go into specifics but one family member's particular issue actually runs COUNTER to the myth that mentally ill folks are more likely to be violent. In his case he has an extremely over-exaggerated sense of guilt, just accidentally stepping on a bug can cause days or weeks of remorse.

This is not an uncommon condition either. There are very few reliable statistics regarding the mentally ill and their likelihood to commit gun violence but in many cases it is my belief that they really are far LESS likely to do so.

 

[danez71]

There are very few reliable statistics regarding the mentally ill and their likelihood to commit gun violence but in many cases it is my belief that they really are far LESS likely to do so.

And the "majority" dont.

But there are multiple reliable sources that indicate the is a disparity of violence committed when comparing the mentally ill and the non mentally ill.

And I have cited one of those reliable sources in this thread that says

2-6 times more likely to commit violence against others

5-15% of violence committed is by the mentally ill

Commit 10-20% of the homicides

Multiple victim homicides in public locations, about 50% are committed by the mentally ill.

So while a "majority" dont... and they tend to be a victim rather than the aggressor, the data still shows that they tend to be violent more often than non mentally ill people.

 

[JohnKSa]

Not much there on substance abuse.

Perhaps if you had taken the time to read it you would have found the numerous references to substance abuse and related issues.

A "find on page" command with the search string "substance abuse" returns 9 matches. The search string "substance abuser" returns another 3. "Alcohol" returns 11 matches and "drugs" returns 3 more.

I realize it's a long article, but seriously, if you can't muster the motivation to actually read through it then why would you waste your time and everyone else's by speculating about a topic that's not important enough to you to warrant spending 15 minutes of your time to inform yourself about it.

 

[danez71]

Actually there is a lot of credible info available.

Let's be honest here. There is actually there is a lot of credible info available.

While it is true that "most" with mental illness don't commit acts of violence, all that says is that less than 50% of those with mental illness commit acts of violence.

Saying that is equivalent to saying that " "most" drunk drivers don't get into accidents."

It's really a misleading statement and not backed by any data.


So lets take a look at credible data.


http://www.treatmentadvocacycenter.org/resources/consequences-of-lack-of-treatment/violence/1381

• A meta-analysis of 204 studies of psychosis as a risk factor for violence reported that “compared with individuals with no mental disorders, people with psychosis seem to be at a substantially elevated risk for violence.” Psychosis “was significantly associated with a 49%–68% increase in the odds of violence.”
Douglas KS, Guy LS, Hart SD. Psychosis as a risk factor for violence to others: a meta-analysis. Psychological Bulletin 2009;135:679–706.

• A review of 22 studies published between 1990 and 2004 “concluded that major mental disorders, per se, especially schizophrenia, even without alcohol or drug abuse, are indeed associated with higher risks for interpersonal violence.” Major mental disorders were said to account for between 5 and 15 percent of community violence.
Joyal CC, Dubreucq J-L, Gendron C et al. Major mental disorders and violence: a critical update. Current Psychiatry Reviews 2007;3:33–50.

• Among 3,743 individuals with bipolar disorder, 8.4 percent committed violent crimes compared to 3.5 percent of the general population in Sweden.
Fazel S, Lichtenstein P, Grann M et al. Bipolar disorder and violent crime. Archives of General Psychiatry 2010;67:931–938.

• Of 8,003 individuals with schizophrenia, 13.2 percent committed at least one violent crime compared with 5.3 percent of the general population in a study in Sweden. Concurrent abuse of alcohol or drugs accounted for much of the increased rate.
Fazel S, Langstrom N, Hjern A et al. Schizophrenia, substance abuse, and violent crime. Journal of the American Medical Association 2009;301:2016–2023.

• A study of 961 young adults in New Zealand reported that individuals with schizophrenia and associated disorders were two-and-one-half times more likely than controls to have been violent in the past year. If the person was also a substance abuser, the incidence of violent behavior was even higher.
Arseneault L, Moffitt TE, Caspi A et. al. Mental disorders and violence in a total birth cohort. Archives of General Psychiatry 2000;57:979–986.

• A 10-year follow-up of 1,056 severely mentally ill patients discharged from mental hospitals in Sweden in 1986 reported that "of those who were 40 years old or younger at the time of discharge, nearly 40 percent had a criminal record as compared to less than 10 percent of the general public." Furthermore, "the most frequently occurring crimes are violent crimes."
Belfrage H. A ten-year follow-up of criminality in Stockholm mental patients. British Journal of Criminology 1998;38:145–155.

• In a study in Finland, an unselected birth cohort of 11,017 individuals was followed for 26 years. Men with schizophrenia without alcoholism were 3.6 times more likely to commit a violent crime than men without a psychiatric diagnosis. Men with both schizophrenia and alcoholism were 25.2 times more likely to commit a violent crime.
Rasanen P, Tiihonen J, Isohanni M et.al. Schizophrenia, alcohol abuse, and violent behavior: a 26-year follow-up study of an unselected birth cohort. 1998;Schizophrenia Bulletin 24:437–441.

• The Epidemiological Catchment Area (ECA) surveys carried out 1980–1983 reported much higher rates of violent behavior among individuals with severe mental illness living in the community compared to other community residents. For example, individuals with schizophrenia were 21 times more likely to have used a weapon in a fight.
Swanson JW, Hozer CD, Ganju VK et. al. Violence and psychiatric disorder in the community: evidence from the Epidemiologic Catchment Area surveys. Hospital and Community Psychiatry 1990;41:761–770.

• In a more recent study in Indiana, researchers examined the records of 518 individuals in prison who had been convicted of homicide between 1990 and 2002. Among the 518, 53 (or 10.2 percent) had been diagnosed with schizophrenia (n=27), bipolar disorder (n=12), or other psychotic disorders not associated with drug abuse (n=14). An additional 42 individuals had been diagnosed with mania or major depressive disorder.
It should be emphasized that the study included only those who had been sentenced to prison and did not include those individuals who had committed homicides and were subsequently found to be incompetent to stand trial or not guilty by reason of insanity and therefore sent to a psychiatric facility instead of prison.
Thus, the 10.2 percent is probably an undercount. The authors themselves did not conclude that individuals with serious mental illnesses were responsible for 10 percent of the homicides, but given the data, that seems a reasonable conclusion. The authors also noted that 80 percent of the mentally ill individuals who committed homicides had received past psychiatric treatment but that “many of the offenders were not receiving treatment” at the time of the homicide.
Matejkowski JC, Cullen SW, Solomon PL. Characteristics of persons with severe mental illness who have been incarcerated for murder. Journal of the American Academy of Psychiatry and the Law 2008;36:74–86.
Studies from other countries are consistent with the 5–10 percent figure.


(I had to cut the above list short.)

http://www.health.harvard.edu/newsletter_article/mental-illness-and-violence

The study found that 31% of people who had both a substance abuse disorder and a psychiatric disorder (a “dual diagnosis”) committed at least one act of violence in a year, compared with 18% of people with a psychiatric disorder alone.

(Later in the article is says this:...)


Rates of violence (convicted of at least 1 violent crime over a 30+ yr period)
General population = 4.25%

Schizophrenia without substance abusive disorder = 8.5%
Schizophrenia without substance abusive disorder = 27.6%
Bipolar without substance abuse = 4.9%
Bipolar with substance abuse = 21.3%

This is interesting. (5%-10% reduction in violence if mental illness was eliminated)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1525086/

For those with a major mental disorder, the population attributable risk was 4.3%, indicating that violence in the community could be reduced by less than five percent if major mental disorders could be eliminated. The population attributable risk for those with a substance abuse disorder was 34%, and for those with a comorbid mental illness and substance abuse disorder it was 5%. Therefore, by these estimates, violence in the community might be reduced by only 10% if both major mental disorders and comorbid disorders were eliminated. However, violence could be reduced by over a third if substance abuse disorders were eliminated.

Using a similar approach, a Canadian study asked what proportion of violent crimes involving a police arrest and detention could be attributed to people with a mental disorder. They surveyed 1,151 newly detained criminal offenders representing all individuals incarcerated in a geographically defined area. Three percent of the violent crimes accruing to this sample were attributable to people with major mental disorders, such as schizophrenia or depression. An additional seven percent were attributable to offenders with primary substance abuse disorders. Therefore, if major mental illness and substance disorder could be eliminated from this population, the proportion of violent crime would drop by about 10% .

This seems to generally support the above.

http://www.propublica.org/article/myth-vs-fact-violence-and-mental-health

People with serious mental illnesses, like schizophrenia, do have a slightly higher risk of committing violence than members of the general population. Yet most violence is not attributable to mental illness. Can you walk us through the numbers?
People with serious mental illness are 3 to 4 times more likely to be violent than those who aren't. But the vast majority of people with mental illness are not violent and never will be.
Most violence in society is caused by other things.
Even if we had a perfect mental health care system, that is not going to solve our gun violence problem. If we were able to magically cure schizophrenia, bipolar disorder and major depression, that would be wonderful, but overall violence would go down by only about 4 percent.

I'm not witch hunting but it seems many here are choosing to be in the dark about the reputable and credible studies available.



Whether or not people here want to acknowledge it or not... and continue to give their opinion based largely on nothing scientific........



The reality is that there is tons of research by credible sources that have data saying that those with mental illness are, in fact, more likely to commit acts of violence as compare to those with out mental illness.


.

 

[BSA1]

danez71,

It is a pleasure to read your posts as you seem to have experience with criminals with mental disorders.

With that said the problem I have with the research data you are posting ignores other important risk factors that play a role in past and predicting future criminal behavior. Factors such as criminal history, education, finances, family/martial, accommodation, use of leisure time/recreation, companions, alcohol/drug problems, emotional/personal history and issues, attitudes and orientation should be included for a accurate survey.

As you may know Level of Services Inventory-Revised (LSI-R) is one such validated risk/need assessment tool which identifies problem areas in a offenders.life and predicts his/her risk of recidivism.

 

[danez71]

danez71,

It is a pleasure to read your posts as you seem to have experience with criminals with mental disorders.

With that said the problem I have with the research data you are posting ignores other important risk factors that play a role in past and predicting future criminal behavior. Factors such as criminal history, education, finances, family/martial, accommodation, use of leisure time/recreation, companions, alcohol/drug problems, emotional/personal history and issues, attitudes and orientation should be included for a accurate survey.

As you may know Level of Services Inventory-Revised (LSI-R) is one such validated risk/need assessment tool which identifies problem areas in a offenders.life and predicts his/her risk of recidivism.

No... I don't claim to have that expirience.

I will claim to not always take unsupported opinion as a predominant factor in my own education.

You are somewhat right.... what I have posted is somewhat cherry picked however..... some of the above does include info of the other factors you mentioned and I provided the links so the full reports can be read.

Last week in another thread something was said that inspired me to go search for credible facts. I wanted to be able to speak with some factual knowledgeable not just spew unsupported opinion.

That doesn't do anyone any good.

What I found was a bit eye opening for me and countered some of my own opinions.

One of the stats above basically says if we eliminated mental illness we could see a 5%-10% reduction in violence but if we eliminated drug abuse we could see a 35% reduction.

My purpose in posting the info isnt to demonize the mentally ill. I feel compassion for them. Its not their fault.

I have a friend that is taking meds ... I wouldn't consider him mentally ill though, IMO. He tends to get depressed and if anything would be self destructive. A step brother of mine killed himself. He grew up under an alcoholic. It's terrible.


There is merit to talking about the mental health issues but we 1st have to acknowledge that there is credible info that says they are more prone to violence than non mentally ill people. But not nearly as much as the hard drug abusers.

Ideally what will come of this new dialog is that they get the treatment they need and keep all their 2A Rights except for the extreme cases.

But that won't happen by playing ostrich for tin foil hat reasons.

 

[CoalTrain49]

I realize it's a long article, but seriously, if you can't muster the motivation to actually read through it then why would you waste your time and everyone else's by speculating about a topic that's not important enough to you to warrant spending 15 minutes of your time to inform yourself about it.

I read it. Thanks for posting it. A lot of very old research with very little emphasis on the correlation between violence rates of the mentally ill who weren't drug and alcohol abusers segregated from the mentally ill who were. The title should have tipped you off.

Violent behavior: One of the consequences of failing to treat individuals with severe mental illness.

That's the case that was being made.

Inconclusive with regards to the subject.

 

[JohnBT]

Some or all of the studies under discussion might be talking about violence that doesn't really rise to the level of what we think of when we talk about criminals and violence.

A great deal of the violence I've been acquainted with through work is the kind that happens when people get frustrated and/or paranoid and lash out at relatives and friends, etc. They hit their mother or father. They throw something at their spouse's head. They bite, they kick, etc. Sure it's violent and people get hurt sometimes. Maybe it's criminal or maybe the cops just got called so the person would be hauled in and forced into treatment of some kind.

It's late. Maybe I'll follow the links and read the reports tomorrow.

John

 

[BSA1]

daniz71,

Since your opinion is based on academic research be careful of the conclusions contain in studies. There is far from any concenus as to criminal causation among corrections professionals and within the psychiatric community. The reality of criminal behavior in prison has taught more than one mental health professional a far different lesson than what they learned in the classroom.

Simply.put there are too many factors that are not understood to draw firm conclusions about mental disorders and criminal behavior.

 

[danez71]

BSA1 said

Simply.put there are too many factors that are not understood to draw firm conclusions about mental disorders and criminal behavior.

I completely agree.

I didn't mean the stats to be portrayed as a conclusion other than a conclusion that the correlation is there.

I was more focused on finding stats and not focusing too much on the conclusions in the studies.

I learned that the causation is more multifaceted than I thought and that other social stimuli the person has can/will make a huge difference.... which is not unlike the non mentally ill.

 

[DeepSouth]

In a country of 300+ million it is nearly impossible to solve problems on an individual basis. Therefore restricting the rights of groups of people is the only way people see to "fix" this problem.

Some want to blame and therefore restrict the rights of gun owners, other want to blame/restrict the mentally ill, others violent video gamers. None of these types of solutions will ever fix the problem. American thinking is terrible in this respect, almost everyone puts people into groups, then thinks about how to "fix" them.

 

[JohnKSa]

A lot of very old research...

The article was updated about 4 years ago and many of the cites are from articles published in that timeframe relating to research completed a year or two before that. Sorry, but it just appears that you're coming up with lots of excuses to dismiss it without spending any time actually addressing, or even carefully examining the content.

You started off asking to see research that would support the assertion I made which was: "The answer is that there are certainly some types of mental illness that, if not properly treated, predispose people to commit violent crimes at rates FAR higher than what is encountered in the general population."

The link I provided (in the post BEFORE your request) addresses exactly what I claimed it did.
Next you claimed it didn't address substance abuse which it did.
Now you're claiming it's "very old" research, which it is not (although admittedly not all of it is from the past few years).
Finally you're trying to assert that violence in some types of untreated mental illness isn't relevant when that's actually the gist of my initial claim which you responded to with skepticism.

...very little emphasis on the correlation between violence rates of the mentally ill who weren't drug and alcohol abusers segregated from the mentally ill who were.

Actually that's addressed multiple times--here's a sampling from the article.

"A review of 22 studies published between 1990 and 2004 “concluded that major mental disorders, per se, especially schizophrenia, even without alcohol or drug abuse, are indeed associated with higher risks for interpersonal violence.”"

"“those with SMI [serious mental illness], irrespective of substance abuse status, were significantly more likely to be violent than those with no mental or substance use disorders.”"

" study of 961 young adults in New Zealand reported that individuals with schizophrenia and associated disorders were two-and-one-half times more likely than controls to have been violent in the past year. If the person was also a substance abuser, the incidence of violent behavior was even higher."

"A study of 63 inpatients with schizophrenia in Spain reported that the best predictors of violent behavior were being sicker (i.e., higher scores on symptom measures) and less insight into their illness. "The single variable that best predicted violence was insight into psychotic symptoms.""

"Men with schizophrenia without alcoholism were 3.6 times more likely to commit a violent crime than men without a psychiatric diagnosis. Men with both schizophrenia and alcoholism were 25.2 times more likely to commit a violent crime."

"A study of homicides in Finland reported that "the risk of committing a homicide was about 10 times greater for schizophrenia patients of both genders than it was for the general population." For men "schizophrenia without alcoholism increased the odds ratio more than 7 times; schizophrenia with coexisting alcoholism more than 17 times."​

Why not just say that you're not interested in reading (or listening to) anything that doesn't support your opinion? It would save everyone (not least of all yourself) a lot of time.

 

[danez71]

Motivated Inference and/or Motivated Skepticism?