The power contradiction

[Captcurt]

When I was at my best (several years ago), I practiced with a bow out to a range of 50, even 60 yards and could consistently make decent hits at that range. When I finally got my act together I learned that there are too many things that can go wrong when shooting at deer from the longer distances. The animal can move after you take the shot. If they just took a step you had a bad hit. There might be a twig in the way that you can't see with the naked eye. Even a gust of wind can affect the arrow flight over a long distance. When I made my maximum limit 30 yards I started killing deer cleanly.

Now I have bowhunted so much that I have a tendency to set up too close when hunting with a firearm. I've had deer so close that they have heard me flip off the safety.

 

[Freedom_fighter_in_IL]

This debate has been around pretty much as long as rifles have been. One major fact that is not being discussed is the fact that a Bow kill is a LOT different than a kill from a firearm of ANY sort. Hemorrhagic Shock (Archery) and Hydrostatic Shock (Firearm) are 2 completely different worlds. Tissue is damaged by both methods but the form of the shock varies greatly from both. The firearm was a tool invented for more efficient killing than a bow. And when used properly it does that job well. Archery kills are crueler to a point yes. Killing any animal in any way whatsoever is cruel period. It is called the circle of life. Deal with it and move on. Nature gave you canines and incisors for a reason. TO EAT MEAT! That meat does not grow on trees and has to be killed and prepared. I have seen deer hit WELL with a 12 gauge slug at 35 yards and still run 150 yards before it dropped. Ran on 3 legs with no heart or lungs. Also seen deer drop dead right there with the exact same placement from a little itty bitty .243. It varies with each and every deer. Very rarely do I have a well hit from a bow double lung shot deer go further than 50 yards unpushed before it lays down and dies. Yet I have seen a TON of unpushed rifle hit deer from various calibres go for 100+ yards with perfectly placed in the shoulder or right behind it. Unless you get a CNS hit it is a crap shoot as to how far a deer will go before giving up.

 

[Coal Dragger]

I've seen blinds used on antelope and I suppose it would be quite a challenge. It amazes me that animals will pay no mind to a foreign object that appears overnight in the middle of the prairie.

 

[7mmstalker]

Captcurt

This debate has and will go on forever, but for me, I will take whatever method, be it handgun, rifle , shotgun, bow or muzzeloader that is legal at the time with whatever weapon that I have at my grasp and go hunting with the complete knowledge that if I do my part, that method will work.

Well said!
I have long held the belief that the single biggest variable affecting the results of the hunt isn't the weapon, but the hunter.

 

[Captcurt]

Captcurt


Well said!
I have long held the belief that the single biggest variable affecting the results of the hunt isn't the weapon, but the hunter.

To quote Elvis, "Thank you very much."

 

[chrt396]

That's why I practice shoot and release deer hunting

Do I detect a hint of sarcasm in that reply??

 

[Sensai]

I read a lot of these discussions, and I enjoy learning how different people think of hunting. This is one of the better ones that I've read, because it got around to the fact that the hunter himself is the prime variable in the equation. I don't care if you deer hunt with a pocket knife, as long as you know the limitations of your tools and skills. The animals deserve no less. The fact that is most often missed is that you can not buy the skills that you need to become a good hunter. The only way to get them is to learn them from those with experience, and practice them in the woods. The experience can be passed on through books and other media (even the internet); but the practice has to be a personal thing in the animals environment. Rant off, you will now be returned to your regularly scheduled station.

 

[zhyla]

Has anyone actually calculated what the terminal energy of an arrow is? It isn't insignificant.

Energy matters more when you're making a small hole. Archers use hunting tips that maximize the surface area of the wound to speed the bleed-out. As long as they get enough penetration it doesn't matter how much energy was involved.

Compare that to a clean .30" hole that takes forever to bleed thru, then you care about energy. You need enough energy to cause hydrostatic effects or maybe penetrate out the back side for more bleeding surface area.

 

[Freedom_fighter_in_IL]

Exactly right zhyla. And the terminal energy of a hunting arrow varies greatly on many things. Just as a bullet from various calibres and cartridges does. Weight of arrow, draw weight, speed--> (which is only calculated into kinetic energy). But an arrow can not have more energy (real energy not paper energy) than the weight of draw. On average with a 70# draw weight, at 20 yards, will have around 60 pounds of stored energy plus the energy created from the speed and weight of the arrow. Put all that together behind a razor sharp broad head and you have an extremely efficient killing tool. One that has been taking game for 10,000 years.

Comparing firearms to archery is a little on the ridiculous side to me really. They are 2 completely different worlds. A good cut on impact broad head at say 25 yards with a good heavy hunting arrow and over 240fps will pass through your average deer sized game quite easily and leaves a MASSIVE wound track. The shock and bleed out from them are completely different than that of a firearm and some don't seem to be able to comprehend that fact.

 

[Leaky Waders]

The real topic should be "Why is the 30 caliber the most recommended deer cartridge, bow hunters do fine with much less energy?"

The answers as some have noted above include:

1) If you're having to ask...then you obviously don't have much experience hunting, or a family mentor to turn too - and that's ok. Therefore, use a classic caliber to hedge your chance at success. Classic calibers are always recommended first on these boards followed closely by obscure calibers that mimic the classic calibers but are a little harder to find, followed by the 223 crowd...

2) Use the right bullet - regardless of cailber - one needs to study how their bullets work. Big game bow hunters use braodheads, not target tips. And, match the speed to your chosen bullet...a broad head on a flu flu is not ideal. Same with cartidges, some bullets perform best at certain velocities.

3) Don't settle on a 'minimum' caliber. Choose a 'maximum' caliber. In other words, a cartridge that one can handle effectively designed for the game. Someone new to clays or duckhunting (my passion) could start with a 410 - and probably become frustrated - because it's considered an experts game. Also, an archer could start with a self bow...or really up their chance of success with a compound and pins.

4) Examine the bullet trajectory and energy at specific distances when looking at various cartridges. Compare them to the classic get er done cartridges. Then consider how your choice plays out based upon your hunting ranges.

5) Don't call a shotgun a shotty ever! It's ghetto. and I personally hate it. Pull your drawers up to your waist while your at it and turn those ipod buds down so you can hear something later in life. And don't say 'no problem' - learn the words 'thank you' because it sure as well would've been a problem if you hadn't had some help...ok, I'm getting cranky and it has nothing to do with this thread...but I said it.

6) Follow the rules of your state - they are built around principles of game management and fair chase.

OK I didnt stay at a holiday inn express or recently follow a yellow brick road...but that's my two cents.

LW

 

[Coal Dragger]

^ You forgot to add to wear your hat strait, and take all the sissy necklaces off and earrings out.

 

[matrem]

Having played baseball for most of my "growing up" years, I've been hit quite a few times with 50 plus ft/lbs of energy, in the cheek, the shoulder, the chest, the hip..and.. well you get the idea.

Razor sharp broadheads,by far, represent the most efficient use of "foot pounds" that I'm aware of.