The proper way to sell a handgun?

[Gracian's Hero]

I recently sold my first handgun online (and probably my last ) and the experience was anything but seamless. I was under the impression that an unlicensed person (a non-FFL entity, such as myself) was allowed to ship the firearm directly to the buyer's FFL dealer by using a carrier (UPS, FedEx) other than the postal service. When I contacted my buyer's FFL dealer to inquire about their shipping address, I was told that what I was trying to do was illegal, and that they would not accept shipment of the firearm unless it was done by an FFL dealer from my end. That left me no choice but to contact a couple of local FFL dealers that I have dealt with in the past so that I could ship out the handgun to my buyer and complete the transaction.

To my surprise, both of the dealers stated that they do not perform FFL to FFL transfers,due to the fact that the paperwork/red tape involved does not justify the fee that they usually charge for "regular transfers" (In other words, they would have no problem receiving and transferring a firearm sold to me and sent from another FFL, as they have done previously, but they would not send a firearm to another FFL sold by me because it was too much of a hassle)

I had no choice but to then contact another FFL dealer. This dealer confirmed my belief that I should be able to mail the firearm directly to my buyer's FFL dealer without having to go through them. When I informed them that my buyer's FFL dealer was not in agreement with that course of action, the local FFL dealer proceeded to call my buyer's FFL dealer in order to try and sort things out.

Here's what transpired:

- My buyers' FFL dealership (which I forgot to mention, is out of state) faxed over their license to my local FFL

- My FFL dealer took down the firearm's information (serial no, make & model, etc.) and logged it in their records book

- My FFL then proceeded to give me the license that was faxed over to them & instructed me to mail the firearm myself (they would not do it themselves) and to include the faxed sheet inside the packaging

- I was charged a transfer fee of $35

I left with the handgun and headed over to the UPS store so that I could mail it to my buyer's FFL. The UPS employees wrapped up & packaged the handgun, but informed me that they would not be able to ship it due to liability reasons. They instructed me to take the firearm to their main office, and that it would have to be done from there. But that's a whole different story...

Which leaves a question still unaswered. Who was right? There was a point that I felt like I was going on a wild goose chase. I did not include in this post the conflicting responses I received from the different dealers due to brevity's sake, but I felt at times that nobody really knew the correct procedure.

Is selling a handgun really this troublesome? Sorry for the long rant, I'm just hoping to be better informed in the future in case that I do have to part (god forbid) with another one of my safe queens

 

[Chester32141]

Face to Face is the only way to sell ...

Chester

 

[Valkman]

You can ship it to a FFL - many of us have had to send new guns in for work and we send them straight to the manufacturer. I can also send them to a FFL for custom work, and he can send it straight back to me!

 

[Gracian's Hero]

You can ship it to a FFL - many of us have had to send new guns in for work and we send them straight to the manufacturer. I can also send them to a FFL for custom work, and he can send it straight back to me!

That's my point exactly. That's why I don't understand why my buyer's FFL would tell me that this would be illegal

 

[NavyLCDR]

Because your buyer's FFL did not accept shipments from a private party by company policy. They either did not know the law, or did not want to disclose the real reason - they just don't do it, but there is nothing illegal about it, unless by their state law, maybe, but I doubt it.

Sorry for your bad experience.

1. Yes, you can, legally ship the handgun yourself to the FFL, but must be UPS or FEDEX.

2. The FFL that you paid the $35.00 should have mailed the handgun for you - via the US Post Office - to the buyer's FFL. It would have been a whole lot cheaper.

Check pawn shops and mom & pop outfits, military surplus stores... those type of smaller FFL's typically will work better with you.

 

[wuchak]

Doesn't make any sense. You can legally ship any gun to an FFL, a manufacturer, and gunsmith. Long guns can go USPS but handguns have to go UPS or Fed-ex.

Link to BATFE FAQ on this http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#b8

(B8) May a nonlicensee ship a firearm by common or contract carrier?

A nonlicensee may ship a firearm by a common or contract carrier to a resident of his or her own State or to a licensee in any State. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun. In addition, Federal law requires that the carrier be notified that the shipment contains a firearm and prohibits common or contract carriers from requiring or causing any label to be placed on any package indicating that it contains a firearm.

You can also ship them to yourself in another state e.g. going on a hunting trip or visiting family out of state. The person receiving the package should not open it, especially if it contains a handgun since they would then become the recipient and it would be illegal. Of course it has to be legal for you to have the firearm in the state you are sending it to.
from ATF link above

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(2)(A), 922(a) (3), 922(a)(5) and 922(e), 27 CFR 478.31 and 478.30]

(B9) May a nonlicensee ship firearms interstate for his or her use in hunting or other lawful activity?

Yes. A person may ship a firearm to himself or herself in care of another person in the State where he or she intends to hunt or engage in any other lawful activity. The package should be addressed to the owner. Persons other than the owner should not open the package and take possession of the firearm.

If shipping handguns to yourself you have to use Fed-Ex. UPS regulations require you to send it to an FFL or manufacturer. Fed-Ex doesn't have this restriction.

I've sold several handguns through Gunbroker and the process was always:
1)seller would either Fax or email me a copy of the FFL license from the FFL they were using or they put me in touch with the FFL to have them send it.
2) I kept a copy of the FFL for myself
3) I enclosed a copy of the FFL with the firearm. Both FFL's wanted the name of the person I was sending it to on the outside of the package since they would not open the box until the buyer was present. This avoided any problems of the buyer accusing them of any damage to the firearm if it was not in the condition I had described.
4) Go to Fed-ex shipping center (cannot go from UPS store or Fed-Ex Kinko's, the people there will flip out if you tell them you have a handgun to ship), tell them you are shipping a handgun, ship it.

 

[Gracian's Hero]

Because your buyer's FFL did not accept shipments from a private party by company policy. They either did not know the law, or did not want to disclose the real reason - they just don't do it, but there is nothing illegal about it, unless by their state law, maybe, but I doubt it

It figures. I always get the offbeat ones. Simple transactions & me don't mix

Sorry for your bad experience.

Thanks

Yes, you can, legally ship the handgun yourself to the FFL, but must be UPS or FEDEX.

That was my original understanding

The FFL that you paid the $35.00 should have mailed the handgun for you - via the US Post Office - to the buyer's FFL. It would have been a whole lot cheaper.

I hear you. I'm embarassed to say how much I ended up paying UPS

 

[Gracian's Hero]

4) Go to Fed-ex shipping center (cannot go from UPS store or Fed-Ex Kinko's, the people there will flip out if you tell them you have a handgun to ship), tell them you are shipping a handgun, ship it.

Boy, I learned that one. Although the guys working there didn't flip out, they started laughing & wanted me to open the box and display the handgun

Thanks for your input wuchak. That's exactly how I figured that the steps would go more or less.

 

[akodo]

I'd say next time tell the buyer he must have an FFL to do the transfer AND THE FFL MUST BE WILLING TO ACCEPT A SHIPMENT FROM A PRIVATE NON-FFL CITIZEN

 

[solareclipse]

My FLL also does not accept from non dealers. He won't even send a copy of his license to a non dealer.

Something about security he said.... So 30-50$ to transfer on the sellers side, 50$ in shipping, another 30-50$ on the buyers side for his transfer... total overhead is easy 120+ per gun above the actual price. Not worth it

 

[jackdanson]

I'm embarassed to say how much I ended up paying UPS

Thanks, we need the cash, business has been slow and I want a raise in febuary.

I'm guessing you had to ship Nextdayair? It can get pricey, but there is a lot that goes in to moving packages that quickly. Planes ain't cheap.

 

[proud2deviate]

I once had a gun shop employee literally scream at me, saying that it was illegal for me to buy a gun from a private citizen in another state under any circumstances whatsoever. She said (screamed,) that it didn't matter if they had an FFl handle the shipping on their end. "No! I won't do it! It's illegal!" Needless to say, they have not been graced by my presence since.

I found another dealer to do the transfer. This one insisted that the gun absolutely had to be shipped from an FFL. Oh, well. Tack on another twenty bucks.

I've since found a nice little mom & pop gun shop that'll handle my transfers, without any guff, and for the low, low price of $10.

"Well, with prices going the way they are, I just like to do my part to help out."

Yep, he actually said that to me. That's a place that'll get my C-note votes from now on

 

[Sato Ord]

The universe was talking to you, and it was saying, "Don't sell that weapon. Put it away until you are interested in it again. You will eventually wish you had it back, and it will cost you more than you got from the sale to replace it."

 

[mgkdrgn]

My FLL also does not accept from non dealers. He won't even send a copy of his license to a non dealer.

Something about security he said....

Yep, security/identity theft.

He faxes his FFL to a non-ffl. That non-ffl then alters that document to make it look like it -his- ffl, and uses it to purchase firearms.

That, among other reasons, is why many ffl's will not accept a shipment from some "Joe Blow" they know nothing about.

 

[waterhouse]

Different businesses have different policies.

I understand you were soured by the experience. In the future:

1) In your for sale ad, state something like "Your dealer must be willing to accept from a private individual. If they are not willing, you must pay extra for my FFL dealer to get involved."

2) Find a local dealer who is willing to ship the handgun through the post office. You'll probably have to pay more than their regular transfer fee, since they are doing the actual shipping and that is additional work, but shipping a flat rate box is less than $20 after insurance and adult signature, so you'll usually wind up a lot cheaper than overnight by Fedex or UPS.

I ship handguns for people all the time. If the right dealer is set up on your end beforehand, things can work very well.

 

[Jim K]

Chester 32141 wrote:

"Face to Face is the only way to sell ..."

Yep, and with a handgun across state lines it is a good way to wind up in federal prison.

The hassle above once again shows how important it is to have the buyer check out his dealer FIRST. Make sure the dealer will accept the shipment, and will send a copy of his license to the seller, or give a copy to you to send. Do that BEFORE buying.

If you are the seller, make sure you have a copy of the receiving dealer's license BEFORE shipping. If in doubt, call him.

If he sends only one FFL copy, make an extra, but keep a copy for your records and put a copy in the package.

Jim

 

[c5_nc]

Fedex is usually cheaper for lightweight overnight service, so would be cheaper for a handgun. Most handguns shipped by private individuals are either Fedex, or they undeclared ground with FedEX or UPS. Its a violation of FedEX and UPS policy to do such, but not a legal violation to do such and neither searches contents of package. I'm not recommending it, but is done a lot.

 

[rondog]

Chester 32141 wrote:

"Face to Face is the only way to sell ..."

Yep, and with a handgun across state lines it is a good way to wind up in federal prison.

So, you're saying if I go to visit my brother in Oklahoma, and find a good deal on a used handgun in the paper from a local seller, it's illegal for me to buy it and bring it home to Colorado? Sorry, I ain't going for that.

 

[DocBoCook]

Did I read that right? that you can ship it inside your state without going to a ffl?

 

[waterhouse]

So, you're saying if I go to visit my brother in Oklahoma, and find a good deal on a used handgun in the paper from a local seller, it's illegal for me to buy it and bring it home to Colorado? Sorry, I ain't going for that.

You are free to read up on it:


From the ATF FAQ:
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#b2

(B2) From whom may an unlicensed person acquire a firearm under the GCA? [Back]

A person may only acquire a firearm within the person’s own State, except that he or she may purchase or otherwise acquire a rifle or shotgun, in person, at a licensee's premises in any State, provided the sale complies with State laws applicable in the State of sale and the State where the purchaser resides. A person may borrow or rent a firearm in any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and (5), 922(b)(3), 27 CFR 478.29 and 478.30]

This means you can purchase a shotgun or a rifle from a dealer in another state. According to this, you can't buy any gun from a non dealer across state lines. Sometime though, the ATF FAQ can be a little misleading, so we'll look at the actual laws:

§ 478.29 Out-of-State acquisition of
firearms by nonlicensees.

No person, other than a licensed importer,
licensed manufacturer, licensed
dealer, or licensed collector, shall
transport into or receive in the State
where the person resides (or if a corporation
or other business entity,
where it maintains a place of business)
any firearm purchased or otherwise obtained
by such person outside that
State: Provided, That the provisions of
this section:
(a) Shall not preclude any person who
lawfully acquires a firearm by bequest
or intestate succession in a State other
than his State of residence from transporting
the firearm into or receiving it
in that State, if it is lawful for such
person to purchase or possess such firearm
in that State,
(b) Shall not apply to the transportation
or receipt of a rifle or shotgun
obtained from a licensed manufacturer,
licensed importer, licensed dealer, or
licensed collector in a State other than
the transferee’s State of residence in
an over-the-counter transaction at the
licensee’s premises obtained in conformity
with the provisions of
§ 478.96(c) and
(c) Shall not apply to the transportation
or receipt of a firearm obtained
in conformity with the provisions of
§§ 478.30 and 478.97.

Section 922. Unlawful acts

(a) It shall be unlawful -
(3) for any person, other than a licensed importer, licensed
manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to transport into or receive in the State where he resides (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, the State where it maintains a place of business) any firearm purchased or otherwise obtained by such person outside that State, except that this paragraph (A) shall not preclude any person who lawfully acquires a firearm by bequest or intestate succession in a State other than his State of residence from transporting the firearm into or receiving it in that State, if it is lawful for such person to purchase or possess such firearm in that State, (B) shall not apply to the transportation or receipt of a firearm obtained in conformity with subsection (b)(3) of this section, and (C) shall not apply to the transportation of any firearm acquired in any State prior to the effective date of this chapter;

So yes, if you go to visit your brother in Oklahoma and you buy a gun from someone in the paper (not a dealer) and you transport your new purchase back to Colorado you are breaking the law.

What would be legal is to have your brother buy the gun in the private deal, and then ship it to your dealer in Colorado, where you would pick it up and fill out the necessary paperwork upon your return to your state.

 

[misANTHrope]

So, you're saying if I go to visit my brother in Oklahoma, and find a good deal on a used handgun in the paper from a local seller, it's illegal for me to buy it and bring it home to Colorado? Sorry, I ain't going for that.

Yup, what you describe is 100% illegal.

 

[NavyLCDR]

4) Go to Fed-ex shipping center (cannot go from UPS store or Fed-Ex Kinko's, the people there will flip out if you tell them you have a handgun to ship), tell them you are shipping a handgun, ship it.

Fedex Kinkos is OK because the shipping counter is manned by a real Fedex employee. I took a T/C Contender to ship to T/C to Fedex Kinkos. Told the guy behind the counter what it was. He asked if he could look. I said, sure. He opened the package, saw it was in fact a handgun, sealed it back up, asked me "Ground or Air?"



Knowing full well what FEDEX policy is (overnight only for handguns), without hesitation I said Ground! Saved me over $40.00 and all went well. Yes, I know if they lost it I could not claim it, but the small chance of that happening worked out OK.

 

[rondog]

mmmmmm, rrrrrrrggggggggg

 

[NavyLCDR]

Chester 32141 wrote:

"Face to Face is the only way to sell ..."

Yep, and with a handgun across state lines it is a good way to wind up in federal prison.

With any firearm across state lines it is a good way to wind up in federal prison, even though this thread is specifically about handguns - private party sales of long guns across states lines is just as illegal.

 

[rondog]

I wonder why, that doesn't really make any sense. A FTF is legal in your own state, but if you find a good deal while on vacation or business in a neighboring state, it's a no-go? That just sucks.

I came real close to doing just that, but the guy's pistols had already sold. What I bought instead was a big bunch of .44 magnum reloading supplies for cheap. Found an ad in one of thoe little "saver" type free papers.