The rights of tourists in Vermont

[Telesway]

Me and my wife are planning a trip to Vermont in about a year or so and started wondering what tourists can or cannot carry.

We're both Europeans so we do not have any carry permits or anything for any State in Northern America.

Are regular folders (Spyderco Delica e.g.) and fixed blades ok? What about impact weapons such as blackjacks, saps, knuckle dusters etc?

I've gathered that once a citizen of the USA a person can purchase and carry firearms in Vermont without an additional CCW pemit. Is this correct?

Thanks in advance!

 

[General Geoff]

I'd stay away from the saps/brass knucks/blackjacks. Any folding knife should be fine, a small fixed blade should be ok too. Might get some strange looks if you try to carry a bowie knife on your thigh, though.

And yes, Vermont requires no permits or licenses to carry a firearm openly or concealed. I'm not sure on the legality of a non-US citizen possessing a firearm (without supervision) in the first place, though.

 

[armoredman]

You could move here - we like actual immigrants!

 

[yeti]

If you can legally possess a gun, under US Federal law, you can carry, open or concealed, without a permit in Vermont. Resident, tourist, just passin' thru, doesn't matter, you can carry.

The knives I don't really know that much about. We are a rural state, so just about everyone has a knife of some sort on them, but I can even begin to advise you on the actual laws. Knives are more regulated than guns are here. Automatics and double edged blades are illegal. And I would say saps, blackjacks, and brass knuckles would get you into more trouble, here, then they would get you out of.

 

[Solo Flyer]

The General and yeti are correct,
You are fine as law abiding tourists to carry a gun, open or concealed ,without a permit in this fine state.
Knives are more of a hassle.
Here is some information from the Vermont Code on knives:

Vermont - Ch. 85 Weapons - T.13-4003... A person who carries
a dangerous or deadly weapon, openly or concealed, with
the intent or avowed purpose of injuring a fellow man, or
who carries a dangerous or deadly weapon within any state
institution... or grounds [thereof]... shall be
imprisoned... or fined.
- T.13.4004... A person while a member of and in attendance
upon a school, carries or has in his possession a firearm,
dirk knife, bowie knife, dagger or other dangerous or
deadly weapon shall be fined not more than $20; however,
the board of school directors may authorize the use of
firearms for instructional purposes...
- T.13.4013. Zip guns; switchblade knives. A person who
possesses, sells or offers for sale a weapon commonly
known as a "zip" gun, or a weapon commonly known as a
switchblade knife, the blade of which is three inches or
more in length, shall be imprisoned not more than ninety
days or fined not more than $100.00, or both.

 

[jrfoxx]

I would check federal law before posessing/carrying a handgun as a foreign tourist, even if there is nothing in Vt law about it, though. There is another recent thread here on this, and there is some dispute as to the details of the law (the thread was mostly about renting guns to use at a range), but the general consensus seems to be that in order to posess a handgun as a non-citizen or non-resident alien, you may at LEAST need to be in posession of a valid hunting license, that
IS actually stated in the law in regards to "posession", but like I said, the debate in that was wether that applies to simply renting one for use at the range. I would think it almost certainly WOULD apply to posession of a non-rented gun being used/carried outside a range though. I'll look for the thread to post at least as a referance to te federal law.

As far as brass knuckles, saps, blackjacks, switchblades, ect, those types of things are illegal in MOST states, so definitely look up VT law specifically on those. Small folding knives are USUALLY ok in almost all states, but the law on the length of the blade varies from place to place (or may not be a factor in some), so I'd look up the deatils for that too. Always bad mojo be break a weapons related law in a foreign country, IMHO, so better safe than sorry.


ETA:Here it is.Look for the references to CFR/BATFE as thats where a couple people post the actual law, and info from the BATFE FAQ (and where the debate gets rolling )
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=377950

 

[Telesway]

Thanks for the info!

I do have a permit for my gun in my home country but I do not intend to take it with me for the holiday nor do I intend to bring it with me unless we some day apply and are granted citizenship of the US.

So the Delica would be ok as well as a flashlight. That's good since that's about what I was thinking of taking with me.



Armoredman, folks in Vermont generally like immigrants? Really? That's rare (atleast here in Finland) but I once read that highly educated (university level) western Europeans are, atleast unofficially, most (out of different "immigrant types") welcome to the States.

Incidently, Vermont is the State to which we are planning to move (all a big questionmark still) once we both graduate from uni (about 5-6 years). Also considering to spend our honeymoon over there to check it out in person.

Since there are actual Vermont residents here, I'd like to ask a few non-weapons related questions about the state, sorry if it goes a bit off topic:

What are the cities/towns like in Vermont? Currently we live in Helsinki, the capital of Finland, which has about 571,354 people in it but only central Helsinki resembles an actual city whereas the rest are more like a group of small towns of 5000-30 000 population.

I myself prefer lots of nature (forests, mountains etc) instead of tall buildings and busy streets. I'm also not a big fan of extreme weather conditions except for winter (a good winter, in my opinion, has around -15 to -5 fahrenheit and lots of snow). What are the summers/winters like in Vermont? From what I've read and seen in photos the nature resembles that of Finland with the addition of mountains.

What about floods, hurricanes, earth quakes etc? Any of those in there?


From what I've understood (googled quite a bit) one first has to find a permanent residence in the US, a local phone number, and also a permanent work place in order to plan moving there. Is this correct?

What is the most common way of living in Vermont, houses or apartments?

All info would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Standing Wolf]

Armoredman, folks in Vermont generally like immigrants? Really? That's rare (atleast here in Finland) but I once read that highly educated (university level) western Europeans are, atleast unofficially, most (out of different "immigrant types") welcome to the States.

America has always been a nation of immigrants. At any given point in our history—and we happen to have the oldest constitutional government in the world—about 10% of our population consists of people born in other countries. At the moment, that proportion is up to over 20% as a result of illegal aliens. Legitimate immigrants are still entirely welcome.

Come on in, friend!

 

[GarySTL]

I'm not a Vermont resident, though I did grow up in the NE USA, so I might address one or two of your questions.

What about floods, hurricanes, earth quakes etc? Any of those in there?

Little chance of earthquakes. The NE USA is not considered to be an "active zone". There might be a small shock carried from another area, but nothing to be concerned about.

Hurricanes occasionally move up the coast and get that far North, but at that point it's just a day or so of heavy rain fall. I only remember twice in 20 years, and that was along the coast.

The only flooding of concern would be along rivers during time of heavy snow melt or heavy rain. Not too much of a concern if you don't live along the bank side.

From what I've understood (googled quite a bit) one first has to find a permanent residence in the US, a local phone number, and also a permanent work place in order to plan moving there. Is this correct?

I can't answer this one except to suggest another message board. It's called the Straight Dope and there are lot's of knowledgeable folks there. At least one is a paralegal working immigration issues. http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/

Hope you find this helpful.

 

[Solo Flyer]

Since there are actual Vermont residents here, I'd like to ask a few non-weapons related questions about the state, sorry if it goes a bit off topic:

What are the cities/towns like in Vermont? Currently we live in Helsinki, the capital of Finland, which has about 571,354 people in it but only central Helsinki resembles an actual city whereas the rest are more like a group of small towns of 5000-30 000 population.

I myself prefer lots of nature (forests, mountains etc) instead of tall buildings and busy streets. I'm also not a big fan of extreme weather conditions except for winter (a good winter, in my opinion, has around -15 to -5 fahrenheit and lots of snow). What are the summers/winters like in Vermont? From what I've read and seen in photos the nature resembles that of Finland with the addition of mountains.

What about floods, hurricanes, earth quakes etc? Any of those in there?


From what I've understood (googled quite a bit) one first has to find a permanent residence in the US, a local phone number, and also a permanent work place in order to plan moving there. Is this correct?

What is the most common way of living in Vermont, houses or apartments?

Tranquil Vermont has no large cities.
The 2 major cities Burlington and Rutland are really just big towns of 40 and 20 thousand people respectively.
Montpelier,a very pretty scenic capital on the banks of the Winooski River has only a population of 9 thousand.The entire state has 600,000 people
The state is almost exclusively rural dotted with tiny villages,open valleys and the Green Mountains which reach heights of 4,300 ft at Mt. Mansfield.Lots of fine skiing with Stowe the major resort.
There is fishing and hunting aplenty and as stated the best gun laws in the entire USA.
Vermonters 16 and older without parental permission can carry firearms openly or concealed without the requirement of a permit.
Winters can be very harsh and long with tempereratures dropping down as far as the low -30's.
Summers are fairly short with temps into the 80's during the day with brisk 50-65 degree nights.
Floods and hurricanes are extremely rare and earthquakes non-existent to my knowledge.
The vast majority of Vermonters live in single family homes.
Politically,Vermont has always had a maverick streak and that continues.
It has the only Socialist Congressman in the U.S.House and overall the slant has become more liberal in recent decades as more people from the left leaning bastions of Massachusetts and New York have moved into the state.
It's still retaining its own unique character however.I don't expect this to change.
It's a beautiful,fine place to live if you can accept the climate and lack of a major metropolis.
Of course Boston,New York City and Montreal,Quebec are only hours away.
I hope you enjoy your visit and perhaps decide to reside here permanently.

http://www.vermont.gov/portal/

 

[AntiqueCollector]

There was a real small quake not too many years ago but nothing dangerous and they're quite infrequent anyways. Floods have happened, just don't live right near one of the larger rivers/creeks and it's not a big worry. Low lying areas are more prone to flooding, but there are more hills in VT than flat areas, so buy a property on a hill and don't worry. Acceptance of outsiders varies. Out of staters are sometimes called "flatlanders" by VT'ers (I've been known to use the term on annoying outsiders), those from NY, MA, NJ, etc., who try to turn VT into what they left (with bad gun laws, etc.) or look down on native VT'ers can find some hostile receptions. Don't try to turn VT into what you left behind and you should be okay. There are always some people everywhere who'll be nasty towards foreigners or others for no real reason (just because they're foreign) but they'd be in the minority. Don't worry too much about it. There are some places I'd suggest you stay away from if you move here but not because you're an immigrant, just because they're not great areas (Rutland City being an example, because of an anti-gun attitude despite all the state laws/etc.).

And as for carrying a firearm: don't take this as legal advice because I'm not a lawyer and haven't entirely researched it to be absolutely sure in your situation, but "antiques" (muzzleloading guns like cap and ball revolvers) are not "firearms" under federal law. I'm not sure if that works also with foreigners who can't otherwise have a "firearm." An "antique" can be bought easily over the counter, by mail, or however you want (except in a few states that are anti-gun), with no paperwork or anything, though you'd probably have some problems bringing one into the country (not sure though, but you may already know how airport security people can be). In fact, I bought a nice cap and ball pistol a couple weeks ago at a yard sale, just gave the guy the money for it and walked off. So if you want to carry a gun that may be an option but don't take my word for it, I'm not a lawyer...and obviously you'd need to buy the gun/powder/caps/projectiles.

Oddly enough brass knuckles, switchblades with blades over a certain length, and some others I can't recall off hand, aren't really legal here (but I've seen them for sale all over the place, out in the open, and most out of state knife dealers don't even know they aren't supposed to ship them here). Knives are more regulated than guns in VT. For a citizen here it wouldn't likely be a major problem, if caught with brass knuckles or a switchblade with too long a blade: knife taken, possibly a fine if they really wanted to push it and prosecute, unless they were doing something else criminal (something serious) in which case the book would be thrown at the person, but a foreign visitor breaking any law can get in trouble with federal law I believe so don't try to rely on the state knife laws not being widely enforced/prosecuted. Any spot on your record could harm your chances of immigrating here because of the feds. Good luck and have a nice trip!

 

[M1911]

Armoredman, folks in Vermont generally like immigrants? Really? That's rare (atleast here in Finland) but I once read that highly educated (university level) western Europeans are, atleast unofficially, most (out of different "immigrant types") welcome to the States.

VT is generally a very tolerant place. There is a bit of a divide between the "chipmunks" (people who were born and raised in VT) versus "flatlanders" (people who moved to VT from places like New York City), but it is still a very tolerant place.

I think you will find the people in the US are generally very welcoming of legal immigrants as we are truly a nation of immigrants. My family escaped from the USSR shortly after the Russian Revolution.

I work in an academic research lab in Cambridge, MA. One of the fellows working with me is on a short visit from Finland where he is getting his PhD. I work closely with folks from Canada, China, India, etc. And we just hired an immigrant from Kenya. In previous jobs, I've worked with immigrants from Iran, Lebanon, Egypt, Ireland, UK, Australia, Switzerland, France, India, Pakistan, China, Taiwan, Chile, and Russia. I'm sure that there are other countries that I've forgotten.

I certainly welcome all productive, law-abiding individuals who legally immigrate to the US and embrace the American dream.

 

[stevelyn]

You could move here - we like actual immigrants!

Yup and they usually make better Americans than most homegrown Americans.

 

[Telesway]

Well, atleast "on paper" and in pictures Vermont seems just about perfect. We'll come and see for ourselves next summer if all goes as planned.

Thanks for the info everyone, it's much appreciated!

 

[carsten1911]

Embassy

Hi Telesway,

if you are planning to become a US resident or even citizen the best source to be asked is the US embassy in Helsinki. Call them (if they publicly offer a phone number), write them a letter to ask aobut the legal procedure.
US immigration law is good structured and thought through...they got experience in that ;-)

Oh, and I was in your city once and liked it (and the surroundings) very much...but that was in summer, 1 week after Johannus, I guess it can be quite different round Christmas ;-)

Carsten