Discussion in 'Blackpowder' started by ClemBert, Aug 11, 2010.
My version of a ROA cylinder loader... Unique in that I used a slip joint on the arm, simple, rugged and comes right out. Works very well... Lots of plunger travel, pic is 30 grains of pyrodex and a round ball loaded.. Lots of travel left. Plunger was from chopped Colt. Holes in end of arm from previous versions....lol... Need to touch up some welding for sure...lol
A little more grinding and SuperBlue.. Stuff works great just a few Q tips full.. Weld and raw metal reacts strongly with bluing... Looks like I made it years ago...lol
Im sure no one cares but... I spent the whole day cutting, crowning, brazing, and polishing my ROA's barrel to 5 3/8"... So far I have removed 5.2 ounces.. Love the Ruger now.. Now I want to see if I can shave a few ounces off the grip by birds heading it.. Way more handy already and will probably sell the Colt on Gunbroker if anyone is interested...
Here's what I learned about the ROA lockup problem and my fix for it... Shot my baby today and it shoots tits... Love it and trust it now with my life..
Never had a lockup problem with any of mine and I’ve had 4 so far
Just as I thought, the "click/click" perfect lockup isn't. The "click" (sounds like 1 click) is "perfect” lockup. That may seem like "no big deal" or "gnat's ass" but there's only one "perfect" and anything else isn't. A rotating cyl doesn't have to be off by much, or (in this case) a short hand, but if it's off, it's off. Some folks have a hard time thinking their "baby" isn't perfect, but guess what?! . . . it's "production" and they aren't all perfect! I deal in perfect . . . clearances to the .001" . . .
If a hand can't fall under the next ratchet tooth at half cock (or hole as in the ROA case), it can't lock up the action. In the case of a Single Action, .004" or .005" of an inch is as good as a mile!
I just finished the second ROA this weekend and it too, doesn't exhibit the dreaded "half cock lockup". None of mine do and neither should yours.
The "adding material to bottom of the half cock notch" is an OK "bandaid" and a decent "get by", but you can fix the problem correctly or . . . put a bandaid on it (for the record, I've never done the bandaid thing . . . in fact, I've removed such and corrected a pair of competition guns) I'm not big on that type of fix and I don't think my customers would appreciate it if I did. I build competition guns pretty much daily and I think doing it correctly is the best.
This is strictly for the ROA community (and not meant as any sort of " dress down" too scuubbs) as this isn't a "normal" problem with "straight cut" ratchet tooth cylinders on other S.A. revolvers.
Never said they all do it.. Easy to check on your gun which nobody seems to want to do.., the difference is how close your to locking up in the right circumstance.. The slight difference in the clicks was no difference in cylinder rotation (did plenty off camera) and totally normal even if it isn't to your supposed perfection.. My half cock notch fix to me is way better than your hand stretching for several reasons including it just sits in notch and is not a wear point, shifts counter rotation well out of the way, and like I said is easy to check on your gun which no one seems to want to check (only takes a minute)...
No problem I love my gun and I have confidence in it and my fix...
Your trying to tell me that only your perfectly timed gun will not lock up and Im saying that no production gun should lock up period if there operating in specification and a slightly out of time revolver is in spec... No other revolver ever locked up on me in 61 years , perfectly timed or not... My fix ensures in spec (not your perfection) guns will be fixed and not even be close to locking up.... This is simple to check... Jeez if that doesn't make sense
Plus you hear the slight difference in clicks but your hand isn't on the cylinder. How do you know the cylinder isn't the first click and is FAST?
I am not trying to run no business and just want a reliable, robust, weapon which I have now so I will bow out of here. I was only trying to share information and help...
[QUOTE="scuubbs, post: 11329555, member: 260466 The slight difference in the clicks was no difference in cylinder rotation [/QUOTE]
This is called "slop" and that is a main difference. Stretching a hand is a "factory fix" (even in the Colt "Specialty shop") so whether you or anyone else likes it or not, that is the correct " factory fix" for a short hand (even for Rugers) . . . as slight as it may be . . . which is all that's needed . . .
I'm pretty sure Sam Colt and "crew" hand a handle on their own product long before we were ever thought of. Bill Ruger did an excellent job of coil springing the S.A. but the "adjustments" are the same (as far as timing).
As evidenced in the post before mine, never an issue . . .
Those that show up here that DO have that situation don't have it when they leave . . . and no bandaid included . . .
I was going by your info in the video you posted. You even pointed out the "click click".
All I've ever done was try to help you but you seem to know better so, I'll sit back and learn with the rest.
Hey scuubbs, like I posted in my last post, I only tried to help you with the "accepted" way to fix your problem. You didn't like my fix so you figured out (or read) the "adding material" fix and I even said it's a "decent" fix (you aren't the first to do that by the way) as far as "bandaids" go. So I figure this is s a "dead horse" now. You're happy and now those that didn't know your fix do now. What's not to like?!!
I never read any fix or explanation, just the problem..If I had it would have saved me time...From my perspective the counter rotation function at half cock is non critical to say the least and it's operation should be well isolated from interfering with the guns function under any normal circumstances. If you call a fix that accomplishes this a bandaid then slap it on.. Now I understand it and yes Im good.. Im thinking on the grip frame now..
My main concern is that when I pull that ROA it cocks, fires, and accurately delivers the ball.. Because it is my home defense gun and my carry gun for safety in the woods. The slight differences your talking about have zero bearing on that because my gun has always fired from a locked cylinder (like any other properly operating revolver) and that click difference makes zero difference (the cylinder gets there in time to shoot...lol)...
Stretching the hand is not a factory fix for ROA's that lock up, there is no factory fix..If there was it certainly would not be a perfectly timed gun but a change to half cock so all the production guns work. Stretching the hand is the correct way to correct for a slow cylinder period and that's it... A fact you can't seem to get...
My ROA had one problem when I removed it from the box, it locked up. The timing and all other functions were well within normal parameters.. I fixed problem by moving half cock slightly directly addressing the problem... Now my factory ROA works perfectly and cannot lock up... I call that a good piece of work.. You keep on fixing non-problems like slight click differences and bolt blocks and I will stick with the gun operating correctly in normal conditions...
Well I can tell you this, your "click click" perfect will allow YOUR ROA to lockup when the hammer is lowered from full to half but if it was a "click" perfect, it wouldn't . . . simple as that. What YOU don't seem to grasp is that stretching the hand is an "across the board" change. Fixing the full cock situation automatically fixes the half cock problem (it's the same hand). The factory doesn't have new parts so the fix would definitely be stretching the hand or, no fix at all (I'm sure probably the latter). I can promise you they wouldn't add material to the half cock notch . . . not an option!! I understand the operation and function of Colt/Ruger 3screw actions backwards and forwards and simple as they may seem, they are the most misunderstood parts /function, cause /effect ever devised.
I'm thankful every day for the teaching I got from Mr. Jim Martin and it is because of that that I don't mind responding to questions or explanations about these arms. What I do is a dying art and I understand that. Those that want to learn, I am more than happy to pass on what little I learned from a master in this industry. So, it is for those that read these "back and forths" that they may pick up a hint or something that increases their understanding of how these "simple" machines work.
After thought /post post - Just because a revolver may be (presumably) new/unfired, there's no telling how many times the action has been cycled. Brand new revolvers have had an ill fitted action "worn out" in less than a 100 cycles. I did one for a magazine article once.
There are six chambers involved in the timing not one.. You will never get all six chambers of the cylinder to "Click" at full cock at the same instant by stretching the hand. Better to have a slightly slow cylinder than a fast one that damages the cylinder anyway.... Even if you did the slightest amount of dirt would cause nothing but problems.. I will never agree with your logic no matter what names you drop...
That's ok, didn't think you would.
For everyone else, those 6 chambers are located on the same cyl. that was machined as a single unit. They've been able to do that with excellent precision since the 1830's, I'm pretty sure Ruger got them right by the 1970's . Can one be out of spec.? Sure. But for timing locations, ive not found 1 revolver in 100's (even the oldest/cheapest) that couldn't be timed well enough by the same action (and i put action stops in all the S.A.'s I tune!).
Also, the ROA problem discussed here is because of the hole pattern rather than the straight cut tooth normally found in a S.A. revolver with a Colt type action.
This will be pointed to as a design flaw but since it is a fairly rare occurrence, it is more a tolerance stacking than design flaw.
PS, If it's deemed a design flaw, that's OK with me. Whatever makes ya feel good.
I had issues with one of my ROAs doing the exact same thing, found 2 issues, the half cock notch was cut too deep, and the hand was short by approximately .005. Added material to the hand and dressed it back to where it needed to be and removed a small amount from the front of the half cock notch. The short hand was the bulk of the problem. While I was fiddling with all this I also added a small amount of metal to the back of the bolt where it meets the hammer plunger and corrected when the bolt drops, it was dropping halfway between the locking notches. Its now dropping into the front of the lead cuts. When the revolver is cocked there is one click at full cock. It does this for all 6 chambers.
Thank you for chiming in... Im a little slow but I understand where Im at now...lol.. 200 guys who have tweaked their ROA's to perfection in more different ways then u can shake a stick at...lol.. I will shut up and work on my gun... thanks..
Gotta say though its hard to believe you reached such timing perfection without messing with index holes.. they can drill those holes that precisely and everything else that is involved but cant make the hand long enough...
Could be luck of the draw I reckon, I know production tolerances can change quite a bit especially near the end of a run. This particular ROA was bought from fleabay and was rode hard and put away wet. However rough it looks it is a good shooter, my best shot with it to date was a single shot kill on a Jackrabbit at around 75 to 80 yards with a 200 gr bullet over 35 grains of Black MZ.
I believe the shot, the ROA seems very accurate.. I think a little slop is intentional for real world operation (dirt, burnt powder, etc)... I can see tuning up things that affect proper operation, reliability, longevity, accuracy or safety but going too far can adversely affect these traits.. My opinion only, no offense to anyone...
I would love any input on the stainless steel grip frame... I guess it's 410 SS like the barrel from what I read.. I ordered some 308LFC welding wire (.035 flux cored stainless steel) that works on 300 and some 400 series stainless.. My plan is too fill in bottom of grip frame, below hammer spring up to gap that allows hammer movement.. I want it the same thickness so I can cut a radius for a birds head grip.. I seen one other guy that did this searching on google.. Im going to do the contour a little different though..
My gun is from 1990 with the original adjustable sights (a long time before end of production) is in pristine condition and I checked it super careful and I have two chambers dead on, two chambers able to get a slight difference in click but no cylinder movement, and two chambers with very slight cylinder movement to lock....I did this super careful too many times (and the last time...lol)... So my gun does not need any modification to timing (in my opinion because it would make several chambers fast)..I found that sitting on sofa , gun in right hand on lap laid over on its side with the cylinder going up hill gave me excellent control for test...
PS To me that tiny bit of variation between chambers is excellent machining tolerances considering the amount of distance the cylinder rotates and pieces involved...
I just finished polishing contact surfaces on my ROA inside and out..Just as tight but smooth as a babies behind.. I was very disappointed at the very poor machining/finishing of the little plunger on the hammer that operates the cylinder latch.. Funny I was looking at replacement plungers and you can even see the crappy finishing in the picture from store (attached. I didn't take pic of mine..lol).. My plunger looked much worse..lol.. I shaped and polished it up ok but I ordered me a little piece of 304SS 1/8" rod and I am going to make my own. Only 5 bucks on eBay for a 12" piece.. I am not sure I like ruger's cylinder latch/plunger design better than the colt design.. I know the way mine came it was a terrible point of friction and wear..Plus I want to try making the plunger a tad bit longer to correct for early bolt drop before I resort to adding metal to the end of the arm on cylinder latch..
What I find disappointing is how Ruger seems to believe in dropping the cylinder latch halfway between the locking recesses, especially on the new models. It makes no sense to have lead cuts if your not gonna use em. Both of my ROAs drop at the beginning of the lead slot but 2 of my new models drop halfway between the recesses. My shop manual says this is how they are supposed to be timed.
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