The sad quality of Marlin firearms nowadays

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Well how about the quality of 31 year old Marlin. I just purchased this one today. DOM 1986. Unfired 1894CS in 357/38. Williams peep sight. I won't say what I paid for it but I got a good deal (under $800). It is in PERFECT condition. Bluing is excellent. Wood is excellent. Fit and finish are awesome. No gaps. Sights straight. Tight and smooth action.

My experience with older Marlin rifles exactly. Those who have failed to notice significant changes in Marlin's finishing and workmanship (for the worse) over the past twenty or thirty years or so just haven't been paying much attention.
 
My experience with older Marlin rifles exactly. Those who have failed to notice significant changes in Marlin's finishing and workmanship (for the worse) over the past twenty or thirty years or so just haven't been paying much attention.
Well there's two main things I notice when I look at the new ones. 1) The bluing isn't very deep. Not like the old ones. 2) The wood doesn't look good. I have seen gaps. Upwards of 1/4" on the tang. No go. Now, to me, being a hobbyist in wood working, the finish is not really a huge deal because I can strip, sand, and refinish to make it look good. I can take some valve grinding compound and slick the action and trigger. I can do lots of things to make the rifle be how I want it to be. And make it look good. But I absolutely shouldn't have to work on a rifle to make it functional. Ever. When it leaves the factory, it should at bare minimum, work.
 
I've worked as an engineer in the semiconductor and medical implant manufacturing industries. It's not difficult to use well established manufacturing tools, such as 6 Sigma, Lean Manufacturing and Design of Experiments to improve product quality, improve cycle time, reduce scrap, reduce cost and so on. Is your process leaving heavy tooling marks behind? Adjust the RPM, feedrate or change the cutter more often - you can figure this out using Design of Experiments. Are the buttstock and forestock not matching in colour? Make multiple bins split by significant colour differences in wood colour (i.e. very light, light, average, dark, very dark). This makes it much easier to match colours on stocks without wasting significant assembly time.

As has been said, it's not rocket science, it's good engineering practice. I don't think the answer is to simply hire a ton of quality inspectors. The answer is to stop these problems existing in the first place. Quality inspectors should have well established work instructions/SOP's so that they know what they're looking for; in my opinion functional issues are unforgiveable, but aesthetics are subjective. Does the quality inspector need corrective vision, or does the area need sufficient lighting to detect a flaw?

I can say from experience that you can make major improvements to the manufacturing process by using some of the aforementioned engineering tools. A business that solely focuses on output will not make these changes. A business focused on maintaining quality and driving down cost will absolutely make these changes.
 
I've worked as an engineer in the semiconductor and medical implant manufacturing industries. It's not difficult to use well established manufacturing tools, such as 6 Sigma, Lean Manufacturing and Design of Experiments to improve product quality, improve cycle time, reduce scrap, reduce cost and so on. Is your process leaving heavy tooling marks behind? Adjust the RPM, feedrate or change the cutter more often - you can figure this out using Design of Experiments. Are the buttstock and forestock not matching in colour? Make multiple bins split by significant colour differences in wood colour (i.e. very light, light, average, dark, very dark). This makes it much easier to match colours on stocks without wasting significant assembly time.
But all that costs money. Are people willing to pay $100 more for a rifle to get that? $200??? Some are, many aren't, which is why we're here in the first place.
 
But all that costs money. Are people willing to pay $100 more for a rifle to get that? $200??? Some are, many aren't, which is why we're here in the first place.

In most cases, improving a process and making it lean doesn't always equate to an increase in prices for the product!! I doubt I would ever get buy in from senior management to improving a process by adding additional cost to the product.

Throwing extra quality inspectors into the mix adds NO value or quality to the product, they just filter out the bad product (supposedly) but they command a salary, therefore making the manufacturing process more expensive. The ideology of what I said above is to avoid scrap and rework in the first place, thus saving the company money. Paying a team of manufacturing engineers to fix these problems and implementing changes may actually work out to be cheaper than continual scrap and rework costs.

I don't think it's asking much of current manufacturers. Marlin and Remington firearms have been affordable over time and they had very high quality. So why should it be any different in current times? In fact, I would expect the same, high level of quality at lower reduced prices.
 
I doubt I would ever get buy in from senior management to improving a process by adding additional cost to the product.

You could if it increased revenue (i.e. you sold more units)

Throwing extra quality inspectors into the mix adds NO value or quality to the product, they just filter out the bad product (supposedly) but they command a salary, therefore making the manufacturing process more expensive. The ideology of what I said above is to avoid scrap and rework in the first place, thus saving the company money. Paying a team of manufacturing engineers to fix these problems and implementing changes may actually work out to be cheaper than continual scrap and rework costs.

You are absolutely right. The old saying, "you can't inspect quality into a product", applies here. You have to fix it at the root cause. Eliminate causes of variation in the process while maintaining a laser focus on meeting your customer's requirements. One of those requirements is price, but not at the expense of quality.

I'm curious, does anyone know if Marlin/Remington is a union shop?
 
I don't think it's asking much of current manufacturers. Marlin and Remington firearms have been affordable over time and they had very high quality. So why should it be any different in current times?
Because craftsman have been supplanted by androgynous Facilitators and Associates, Personnel with Human Resources and engineers by CFOs.
 
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It does cost money, because the current procedure was designed to save money. If you slow down your machinery and change/adjust cutters more often, it has a direct cost. The consumer dictates the price point, the manufacturers just have to make the product fit. I would absolutely be willing to pay $1000-$1200 for a Marlin fitted and finished like a Miroku but most would not. Most want quality and cost to remain the same, regardless of inflation or increase manufacturing costs. Greed is not exclusive to the top 1%.
 
It does cost money, because the current procedure was designed to save money. If you slow down your machinery and change/adjust cutters more often, it has a direct cost. The consumer dictates the price point, the manufacturers just have to make the product fit. I would absolutely be willing to pay $1000-$1200 for a Marlin fitted and finished like a Miroku but most would not. Most want quality and cost to remain the same, regardless of inflation or increase manufacturing costs. Greed is not exclusive to the top 1%.
I guarantee their manufacturing process is set up for minimal consumable replacements on machines and minimal inspection procedures, in order to have less machine downtime and less time on processes that are non value added. They most likely buy their materials as cheap as possible irrespective of defects. This is a false economy. You experience more machine downtime due to knackered components which should have been replaced far sooner and more defective products because components are worn, thus producing parts which do not meet drawing specifications. Lack of quality inspection would miss these defects which are passed onto the consumer which does not leave them very happy!

Myself and a team of engineers worked on a project to reduce the cost of a given process. The raw material for said process had risen in price dramatically over time so we saw that as the most effective way to drive down cost. We approached another vendor and supplied a purchase specification of what we wanted to buy from them. We performed all the testing required to qualify the process on the new material, ensuring that the product was not adversely affected, and submitted our work to regulatory bodies. It took 6 months and maybe $100,000 of testing to qualify. Take into account the salary of 4 engineers over 6 months and the total comes to around $200,000. The change of raw material saved the company $1,000,000 per year. No reduction in scrap/rework, no increase in cycle time and no increase in product cost (obviously). So it was a win-win scenario.

Just because we had to do a bit of work and spend a bit of money doesn't mean that it's not worth doing! The long term gains are where it's at.
 
Henry manages to build a quality rifle that isn't much more than marlin. There are lots of rifles at the Marlin price point that have much better fit and finish. It can be done.
 
But all that costs money. Are people willing to pay $100 more for a rifle to get that? $200??? Some are, many aren't, which is why we're here in the first place.

People are quick to jump on the "costs more money" bandwagon. But the reality is that investing the time and money to effectively train, improve, and streamline a production line to eliminate or minimize production flaws don't always HAVE to be "expensive"...and even if they are somewhat expensive, they rapidly pay for themselves.

How much time and money, for example, goes into manufacturing and shipping a defective product? The answer is "the same amount of time and money it takes to manufacture and ship a good product".

But defective products have costs down the line, as well...how much time and money does it take to deal with customer complaints, pay shipping and handling two ways on a warrantied product, troubleshoot/repair/test a defective product?

And how does this effect the bottom line in a competative market where reputation can have a significant impact on moving the product?
 
But the reality is that investing the time and money to effectively train, improve, and streamline a production line to eliminate or minimize production flaws don't always HAVE to be "expensive"...and even if they are somewhat expensive, they rapidly pay for themselves.

Absolutely. Not only are these improvements generally inexpensive but after implementation they actually save money.

I'd love to spend a week in their factory
 
The problem is convincing the management that they need to approve a large expenditure for labor, equipment, training, manufacturing consultants, whatever, in the hope that it will pay off. That is never a sure thing. Then when management meets with there bosses from Freedom Group they will need to explain why there operating expenses will be going up by a few hundred thousand dollars for the next several months with no increase in revenue and justify it with made up numbers to show what the return on investment or savings to manufacturing costs is going to be long term. And believe me every department in a corporation is fighting over the corporate budget like hungry dogs over a steak, so management is leary of such requests unless they have some real data to prove the current issue is hurting sales. Assuming they are able to get approval for capital to make improvements there is an expectation that they are going to see a benefit in sales or reduced cost sooner rather than later. I work in a medium sized corporation and this is how this crap always goes. People have a hard time looking past hitting next months numbers. I've had directors that would sell the building if they thought they could claim the revenue to meet this quarters numbers.
 
People are quick to jump on the "costs more money" bandwagon. But the reality is that investing the time and money to effectively train, improve, and streamline a production line to eliminate or minimize production flaws don't always HAVE to be "expensive"...and even if they are somewhat expensive, they rapidly pay for themselves.

How much time and money, for example, goes into manufacturing and shipping a defective product? The answer is "the same amount of time and money it takes to manufacture and ship a good product".

But defective products have costs down the line, as well...how much time and money does it take to deal with customer complaints, pay shipping and handling two ways on a warrantied product, troubleshoot/repair/test a defective product?

And how does this effect the bottom line in a competative market where reputation can have a significant impact on moving the product?
I'm not talking about preventing defects. I'm talking about offering a higher level of fit & finish than Marlin has historically provided. But there is also a blurred line here as well. Because of all the valid issues that have come up during the Remlin transition, people are much more critical than in the past. Flaws that would have been overlooked or not even seen as flaws in the past are now grabbing folks' attention. Which was the point I was trying to make in my first post. Marlin has never bothered to match forends to buttstocks. They have always left machine marks on receivers, had uneven finishes on the receiver sides and spotty wood to metal fit. It was always acceptable for their price point. Now that they are more critical, they think these issues are new when in fact, they were always there. They just didn't notice before, or care.

Do I need to take detailed pictures of my JM Marlins to illustrate?

I even remember when the anniversary 39 came out with fancy wood and an octagon barrel. I was appalled that it had the same rough machine work as the rest, for double the price I paid for my 94/22's.
 
Henry manages to build a quality rifle that isn't much more than marlin. There are lots of rifles at the Marlin price point that have much better fit and finish. It can be done.
It's comical to me that people consider Henry to even be equal to a Marlin. They have always impressed me as a cut below and with ridiculous asking prices on anything but the entry level rimfires.
 
It's comical to me that people consider Henry to even be equal to a Marlin. They have always impressed me as a cut below and with ridiculous asking prices on anything but the entry level rimfires.
I don't consider Henry to be equal to Marlin. I consider them to be superior. The only reason people buy Marlins over Henry's is the loading gate. Or there's a rebate. I didn't need to send any of my Henrys back multiple time for stupid things. I didn't need to smooth the action up on my Henry's out of the box. They cycled smooth from the factory. If you ask most people about new Henry's I hear nothing but praise. Marlins seem to be hit or miss. Gun store owners selling both have told me the Marlins are hit and miss.
 
No, it ain't the loading gate for me. It's the fact that Henry's are poorly polished, usually poorly fitted, too heavy, too expensive, ugly as a mud fence and have zero historical significance.
 
No, it ain't the loading gate for me. It's the fact that Henry's are poorly polished, usually poorly fitted, too heavy, too expensive, ugly as a mud fence and have zero historical significance.
Every one I've seen was gorgeous. Much nicer than any new Marlin. Not that that's saying much. The big boy steels are only 8oz heavier than the comparable Marlins. You Tennessee guys must not be that tough. Lol. Probably all that extra material where the loading gate should be. I guess you like what you like. If Henry only made their brass versions I'd probably feel different. But I really love all of their new stuff. Can't wait until they introduce more new things.
 
No, it ain't the loading gate for me. It's the fact that Henry's are poorly polished, usually poorly fitted, too heavy, too expensive, ugly as a mud fence and have zero historical significance.

I would have to agree with this. If a henry big boy was the same cost as an 1894, and had a loading gate, and was the same weight, and wasn't called a "big boy", then I might consider it. Seriously how do you make a lever gun as ugly as a big boy? I know looks are subjective but they are really really ugly.
 
Marlin's probably been making the same rifles on CNC tooling for what, 25 or 30 years? I would have to think they've refined their manufacturing process pretty thoroughly by now.
 
Every one I've seen was gorgeous. Much nicer than any new Marlin. Not that that's saying much. The big boy steels are only 8oz heavier than the comparable Marlins. You Tennessee guys must not be that tough. Lol. Probably all that extra material where the loading gate should be. I guess you like what you like. If Henry only made their brass versions I'd probably feel different. But I really love all of their new stuff. Can't wait until they introduce more new things.
Two pounds, not eight ounces and I hunt with a 10lb rifle every year. Leave the macho nonsense out of it. :confused:
 
My father in law has a Henry 22 lever rifle. Its a nice quality gun. I was really impressed with the quality of finish on the receiver until I noticed a chip in it. The receiver appears to be a die casting and its PAINTED gloss black!
 
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