The small bore defensive shotgun

[Guns and more]

I wish the Box o' Truth would test that one.

You mean, "The box of opinion"?
How do they test? They shoot into milk jugs filled with water. Then rate the performance by how many milk jugs it penetrates.
So, here's my problem with that. How do you know if the bullet just got into the milk jug or got all the way to the other side buy bounced off the far side of the container? It's the water slowing down the bullet, and 10" or so seems to be a big error margin.
I guess they don't do gelatin, so it puts them into the "Hold my beer, watch this" category of research, to me.

I, too would be interested in seeing a real test between 12ga. and .410. Tests that show penetration. Comparable shells. (Not a 12 ga. magnum slug against a .410 2 1/2" buckshot.)

If the .410 buckshot is indeed moving at the same velocity as the 12 ga. buckshot, they should penetrate the same. Apples to apples.

 

[Jason_W]

How do they test? They shoot into milk jugs filled with water. Then rate the performance by how many milk jugs it penetrates.
So, here's my problem with that. How do you know if the bullet just got into the milk jug or got all the way to the other side buy bounced off the far side of the container?

That's the trouble with water-only testing. It only reveals penetration, which is only part of the story when it comes to the killing potential of a round. A medium that records the cavity without exaggerating it is more useful, IMO. I've done some gel testing, which is expensive, and upon doing further research, I learned that gel should not be re-melted and set, as the bonds between the molecules will be weaker each time. I'm in the process of trying some other, re-usable test media. I'm hoping fugitive glue will work, but I won't know until a sample of it arrives.

Incorporating some kind of bone substitute into ballistic tests is also very telling, IMO. Not only will bone affect pentration and expansion, but in some instances, bone will create secondary projectiles, doing additional tissue damage.

 

[goon]

The issue I've had with .410 buck shot loads is that they haven't patterned well in the guns I've shot them in. If you can find a load that does that well, a handful of pellets at the same speed will still do some damage.
If you need a light recoiling gun you might try a Marlin lever action or a M-1 carbine if the .410 doesn't do what you need.

As for the Box o' Truth tests, I respect what those guys are doing, but a .410 out of a pistol isn't the same thing as a .410 out of a 18 inch barrel. The velocity just isn't going to be the same and he even had to manufacture 2.5 shotshells by cutting down a 3" shell. Scientific, it is not.

 

[Deltaboy1984]

Go with a 20 guage!

 

[Pfletch83]

Well gents pretty soon I'll be able to put some of my theories to the test.

I ordered a Mossberg 50455 at my local shop last saturday.

Instead of chopping off the 24-inch barrel (and messing with a good small game getter) I'm going to swap out the barrel of the 50455 and put it on my wood stocked 500E.

I'll update this A.S.A.P.

 

[Pfletch83]

(Yeah I know it's been a few months but that little scattergun was hard to find)

The.410 Cruiser is in lay-N-wait right now,I'm going to be paying more on it this month,and I'll be a bit closer to test time.

 

[PoserHoser]

most people who say the .410 isn't powerful enough haven't shot something with it id pick it over a handgun in most instances

 

[RugerMcMarlin]

I thought he said he already had the gun. I would not cut the barrel!
Most I have looked at were quite handy with 25" barrels. I also think .410 from a 25" barrel would be about 3-5 times as good as .410 out of a 5" barrel. Dont worry about slugs from full choke, use Remingtons they are foster type, hollow like a minie ball, and at HD range you won't be able to tell the difference anyway. I think its a pretty good idea. I had one of the Stoeger SxS, in 410, choked IC and MOD, fixed,
we were horsing around with it at sporting clays,and it did surprisingly well, my buddy had to have it, swapped me out of it for a .410 Remington Express. Which I love.

As far as buck shot patterns, at HD range I dont care if they hit together, or in a string like full auto. I can't really see them flying too wide of the mark.

 

[goon]

I can't say for certain, but isn't the slug in .410 load really light? Maybe someone can verify this, but I think you might have more payload in a load of 3" 00 or 000 buck (or whatever they stuff in them).

I'm interested to see what the story is with this. Personally, I wouldn't go less than 20 gauge. Ammo for .410 is just too expensive for me. The only thing I use mine for now is teaching new shooters and the occasional squirrel. I think a 20 gauge is way better for most uses.
Also, I have found that even with a single barrel I can speed load a 20 or 12 gauge a lot faster than a .410. The chamber is bigger and the shell is bigger and it's just easier to line things up quickly under pressure. I'd probably consider hunting or just shooting recreationally with a double barrel .410 but I'd prefer a bigger guage in that type of gun for defense just because I know I could get it reloaded faster.

But I can't fault the OP's logic. His little mini-gun is still launching half the payload of a 12 gauge at the same speed. If he can put those pellets where they need to go, I can't see why it wouldn't be effective.

 

[THplanes]

Here's a ballistic gell test of the Fed .410 handgun 000 buck using a judge.

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4550011&postcount=37

Penetration won't be a problem, especially out of a shotgun. The PDX rounds out of a judge are just a gimmick. They might be OK out of a shotgun, the BB's are still of no practical value. But why bother, the Federal is the cheapest and best buckshot available. I don't understand the complaints about the price of .410 buckshot. The Federal load is cheaper than quality 12 ga. 00 loads and about on par with cheap 12 ga. loads. Don't forget you're comparing 00 in the 12 ga. with 000 in the .410. Out of a shotgun it will penetrate more than the 00 in a low recoil 12 ga. load.

I've used 9mm, .40, .45, and .410(out of a 3" barrel judge) to cull rabbits that won't stay out of my garden. The judge did far more damage than the pistol calibers and a clean instant death for the offending rabbit. All pellets exited after penetrating the full length of the rabbit.

Trying to compare .410 out of a shotgun to service caliber pistols is silly. Four pellets of 000 is around 260 gr and 1200 fps. Compare that to a typical pistol round. You also get a synergistic effect with the 4 or 5 pellets. As long as the temporary stretch cavities are large enough to merge you will get tearing between the individual pellet tracks. I've seen the effect on the previously mentioned rabbit.

 

[RugerMcMarlin]

I understand about your shoulder problem, my left one hurts most of the time.
I'm not going to try to talk you out of it either. I like the idea of the 410, can't see why it would not work. There is a bunch more shell choices than a couple years ago. No reason why it can't be fun to shoot too. I have .410s that I would not hesitate to use. It's amazing so many people dislike the .410, yet they never seem to wonder why there are so many of them around.

I like the Mossberg bolt actions too.

 

[Panzercat]

I demand photos. FOE-TOES, YA HEAR?

 

[RugerMcMarlin]

TH Planes is on to something.

If Wild Bill Hickock fanned his Navy Colt in .36 cal, and all 5 or 6 hits could be covered with a playing card, it would be a devastating display of lethality!

You'll be doing the same thing with a little better velocity. And the shots a little closer together!

Or, a solid hit with .410 , 000, is equal to a half___ hit with 12 gauge 000.

 

[Cosmoline]

That's the trouble with water-only testing. It only reveals penetration, which is only part of the story when it comes to the killing potential of a round.

Penetration is a PREREQUISITE to stopping power. It may not be the whole story, but it's a critical part of that story. If testing shows penetration of only a few inches in flesh, you've got problems.

most people who say the .410 isn't powerful enough haven't shot something with it

I've shot some squirrels with an old single shot .410. It worked OK, but not as well or as quickly as my CZ 452. It may be possible to turn the .410 into something for use against a human foe, but why restrict yourself to something that marginal? And remember people are getting really big these days. Do you trust the .410 to deal with the 350 lb. criminal? I don't. Particularly when it's so much easier and cheaper to go with a .20 ga. loaded with some good slugs.

In fact I'm really puzzled as to why the 20 ga gets so much less attention than the .410 these days. I would have expected the .410 to continue its decline into marginal small game hunting and fence walking, but maybe because of "The Judge" the forums are awash with people wanting to use it for personal defense. The 20 ga has less recoil than the 12, but a wide array of loads commercially available for all purposes. It boasts considerable stopping power and has a very, very old pedigree. The classic trade guns and fusils de chasse of the old days were around that same size. It's a caliber that gets it done without too much fuss for everything from small game to eastern bear. Go down to .45 in a smoothbore and you're really limiting yourself. You also run into problems with buckshot on the bottom of the column getting squished. And of course a less dense pattern.

 

[RugerMcMarlin]

Cosmoline, the guy has a bunged up neck and shoulder. He already bought a 410. If he could have stood the recoil he probably would have got a 20 also.


Oh Hell, Tell them you use a .410 because it's more sporting! Most of them aren't listening anyway.

 

[Panzercat]

In fact I'm really puzzled as to why the 20 ga gets so much less attention than the .410 these days.

A single word: Taurus.

I find it ironic that they market their gun as a defensive pistol that can chamber both .45 and .410, when the .45 is the obviously superior round at the ranges they push. 00 pellets just won't open up enough to matter that signfigantly vs. what a .45 will do to you. Nine of those, on the other hand... mass is mass.

Not saying they won't work, but just why bother unless you need a snake gun?

 

[Bud Tugly]

Since the OP stated that he already has a .410, all the posts advising him that he should have chosen something else are a bit off-topic. Many others who
already have one might also want to consider them for HD rather than spending the money on a new gun that they're unfamiliar with. While there certainly are better choices, the 5-pellet load of 000 buck traveling at about 1200 fps out of a .410 will definitely do significant damage in practiced hands.

Being able to shoot with confidence and accuracy is far more important in any HD situation than having the "perfect" weapon.

 

[Panzercat]

Which is why I made it a point to say a .410 load will work?

Besides, I've been here since page one where he stated he would reload. Just thinking out loud, personally. To me, .410 is a gimmick for what Taurus is advertising it for. Usable, but no less a gimmick. I especially love the pic of some woman sticking a judge in the the face of a carjacker, like a plain ol .45 in her hands represented less effective firepower

 

[goon]

Yeah, but everyone seems to forget that the .410 predates Taurus, as does .410 buck shot. And the OP isn't using a handgun - he's using a shotgun with a 18" barrel that will allow better velocity and more accurate placement of his shots.
I agree that the Judge is a solution in search of a problem, and I agree that for HD I'd rather have a 12 gauge first or a 20 gauge (if I were limited to shotguns), but a .410 pushing half the payload of a 12 gauge into the chest cavity of an attacker is still gonna do something to change his attitude.

 

[Dave McCracken]

FWIW, I regard a 410 shotgun as vastly superior to a 410 handgun, even if it also shoots 45LC.

One of the hard to prove anecdotes to come out of NOLA after Katrina involved an attempted home invasion. Supposedly, either two or three hoods tried to rob an elderly couple, who had a 38 revolver and a Winchester Model 42 skeet gun, well known to the man of the couple. While the Mrs went after the 38, Pop engaged with the little 410 and some skeet loads. Crisis was resolved in a second or two.

For folks with medical limitations, physical probs and so forth, a 410 pump gun provides a level of security they may desperately need while being easily operable.

 

[THplanes]

I especially love the pic of some woman sticking a judge in the the face of a carjacker, like a plain ol .45 in her hands represented less effective firepower

If you understand how buckshot works, you would understand that the .45 colt does have less effective firepower at short range. Short range is the key here, the pattern opens up to much past somewhere in the 12-15 yard range. Talking about the judge, a shotgun should have a much greater useful range.

Someone mentioned the problem with the buck on the bottom getting flattened out and producing a poor pattern. That is very true for something like the standard Winchester 3 pellet 00 buck. On paper targets you get one hole that looks like a round nose. The others look like a .40 or larger caliber wad-cutter hit. That why the Federal handgun load is the only load I've seen that patterns and penetrates well. It's hard shot and copper plated. Recovered pellets will have dents in them from the pellet in front of it. But they will still be mostly round and not squished out into a flat plate.

I know people refuse to believe it, but the Federal load really is a big leap forward for the .410, handgun or shotgun. In a 3" barrel judge you will get a pattern that is 2-2.5 inches long at 7 yards. In all the judges I've seen the pellets are in a line with the last pellet about .5" above the line. I have see reports and pictures of this load from a shotgun. But I don't remember the exact pattern size. But is was adequate for HD distances.

 

[Panzercat]

C'mon guy. You're just arguing to argue now. Again, the picture shows her pointing the judge at the guy's head. At point blank range. You're either missing the chuckle here or ignoring it so you can push a .410, which I already said was fine.

Either way, I'd like to see you push that argument in the handgunner's forum. I promise one or more LOLs

 

[THplanes]

.

Either way, I'd like to see you push that argument in the handgunner's forum. I promise one or more LOLs

Ignorance is on display all over the internet. Plenty of it is on the handgunner's forum as well.

 

[matt_borror]

the judge is a gimmick. I thought it was the coolest thing since sliced bread until I shot 1. I hated it. Also, a .410 is nowhere NEAR as versatile as a 20 g as far as loads and I think the recoil is at best a minimal increase for what you're getting back ie cheaper shells, more power, more options, ect. That said if you're dead set on a .410 I'd say you made the right decision in picking up a shotgun before going pistol or carbine.

 

[goon]

]I especially love the pic of some woman sticking a judge in the the face of a carjacker, like a plain ol .45 in her hands represented less effective firepower

Yeah, but we both know that's just marketing hype meant to sell guns to people who want a Judge. And for some reason, even though they are often mechanically unreliable and no more effective than a .357 of the same size, people keep buying them.

Anyhow, I do like that at least there's a little work being done with the .410 for defensive loads now. I don't see myself using my little single barrel for that, but I might pick up a box or two of the newer ammo just to see what it does.