The Snubby's Dirty Little Secret

[chopinbloc]

I got another article published. Here's an excerpt:

Most of us who have been shooting for a while know that jacketed hollow point ammunition is vastly preferred for a defensive handgun. Pistols and revolvers do not produce enough velocity for the stretch cavity to contribute to wounding the way it does in many rifles so the size of the wound is dependent on the size of the projectile. The wider the bullet gets, the larger the hole is. JHP ammunition is designed to begin expanding shortly after impact to create a wider wound channel. With a larger frontal area, the bullet also slows quickly and therefore presents less risk to people that might be beyond your attacker. Many of us also choose a small revolver for concealed carry because, although they are difficult to master, a small revolver is simple and light weight making it very convenient to slip in a pocket. Let’s face it; we aren’t likely to need a gun. If we do need a gun, we probably won’t have to fire it. If we do have to fire it, the bad guy probably won’t be farther away than we can smell him and we probably won’t have to shoot more than once or twice. That makes a short barrel .38 Special a very reasonable choice. It’s also perfectly reasonable to just pick a quality JHP from one of the four or five big names and be done with it. Or is it?

We live in a golden age when it comes to defensive ammunition design. There are quite a few very well designed, high performance bullet designs out there. Gone are the days when there was great merit to the respective sides in the ancient 9mm vs. .45 ACP debate. Loaded with modern JHP ammunition, both 9mm and .45 perform very well, as does .40 S&W and .357 Sig. HST, Gold Dot, SXT, Ranger, PDX1, XTP, and Golden Saber all deliver very good accuracy and terminal performance and the difference between the top and bottom performers among that crowd is negligible. So why not just choose any one of them and hit the road? Everybody knows Speer Gold Dot is a top performer so if you’re carrying a 2” .38 spl grab a box of the 135 gr +P short barrel load and put it out of your mind, right? Not quite. As it turns out, .38 spl is right on the edge of the performance envelope. Some of those loads will work okay, but not through denim, or they’ll expand just fine when fired through denim in warm weather but cold weather lowers the velocity just enough to prevent expansion. The ammunition makers aren’t exactly lying to us; it’s just that the test protocol can’t always be robust enough to cover every situation. Take that highly regarded 135 gr Gold Dot load, for example. ATK (the parent company for Speer and Federal) gives test results for all their defensive ammunition on their website: http://le.atk.com/wound_ballistics/ The results listed for that 135 gr load indicate that it fails to meet the 12” minimum when fired into bare gel or through the FBI heavy clothing standard and it barely begins to expand when fired through the IWBA heavy clothing standard. In my own informal testing of the load, I accidentally discovered that cold weather can prevent it from gaining enough velocity to expand. I later confirmed that in a separate test.

The rest is here, if you're interested.

 

[MagnumDweeb]

Good stuff. It's why I won't consider a snub nose .38 special revolver. My snub nose .357 magnum revolvers are hard on the hand and won't really outperform 9mm from a snub nose by too great a margin (with the exception of certain loads). In the same token though, my SP101 has been dead nuts reliable after 2,000 rounds.

 

[CZ9shooter]

158gr HP-SWC is where it's at. If it expands, great. If not, at least you got some brute force behind a heavy flat point

 

[Ryanxia]

Let’s face it; we aren’t likely to need a gun. If we do need a gun, we probably won’t have to fire it. If we do have to fire it, the bad guy probably won’t be farther away than we can smell him and we probably won’t have to shoot more than once or twice.

That's a heck of an assumption. I don't think I'll bank on those probabilities, other than that, good stuff.

 

[tubeshooter]

158gr HP-SWC is where it's at. If it expands, great. If not, at least you got some brute force behind a heavy flat point

Yeah, if you have any reservations about Gold Dots expanding at typical .38 snub velocities you can always just go with your extra 23 grains with no frills.

This is kind of why I typically load 3 of the Gold Dots and 2 of the 158 SWCs in my snubs. Sort of playing the averages, I guess.

The .38 Special has never been considered a barn burner, so the article doesn't really strike me as news. Some good points though, none the less.



There's plenty of good .38 Special defense ammunition out there, hollow point or SWC if you prefer. When I had no Gold Dots I would carry 5 of the SWCs and I didn't lose any sleep over it. Still wouldn't, in fact. As always, YMMV.

 

[chopinbloc]

hat's a heck of an assumption. I don't think I'll bank on those probabilities, other than that, good stuff.

It's not assumption, it's just statistics. Those statements are all true. We choose to carry so that we can be prepared for an UNLIKELY event. If being attacked and needing to engage multiple attackers at 25m+ was a statistical likelihood, either you are a soldier or you need to move.

 

[MedWheeler]

^^ Exactly. Though I wouldn't "bank on them", either, they are the likelihood.

Estimates on defensive-gun-use incidents run between one quarter and three quarters of a million per year in the US. Fewer than a hundred or so involve anyone actually being shot, so the other virtually-one-hundred percent are "no-shot" situations, or situations in which the gun is fired but no one is hit (warning shots or misses.)

That being said, I do own two .38 snub revolvers, and carry them on occasion. But, it's not that often, and they're stoked simply with what I can get my hands on. For the time being, that's R-UMC 125-grain FNEB stuff. I don't run +P in either of them (they're both vintage Charter Arms Undercover models; one from 1987 and the other from 1966.)

 

[Anmut]

EDC is a 642 with +p 38. If I could conceal anything bigger during the work week I would. Weekend carry is .357 J-frame.

Either of them is better than nothing. Full wad cutters in .38 have been proven as devastating to flesh if you're into that thing. However I carry mine to get me OUT of the situation and, if necessary, back to a rifle.

 

[edmo01]

deleted...

 

[357 Terms]

My little snubby has a secret, its not a 38 special, its a 357 mag!

125grn Barnes XPB's loaded to about 1200fps (2.25 DAO sp101)

That truth will hurt.

 

[HexHead]

The snubby I carry the most now is a .44 Special with Nosler 200gr JHPs. I don't worry too much if they're going to expand or not.

My .38 often has 148gr DEWC in it. It'll do the same thing to organs it does to paper.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by chopinbloc: Let’s face it; we aren’t likely to need a gun. If we do need a gun, we probably won’t have to fire it. If we do have to fire it, the bad guy probably won’t be farther away than we can smell him and we probably won’t have to shoot more than once or twice.

It is true that on any one day, one's chances of needing a gun are infinitesimal. But that has absolutely nothing to do with what one will need the gun to do should the need arise.

It is probably true that showing a gun will often suffice, but again, that is irrelevant to the need--displaying a gun may not suffice.

Tom Givens has compiled some data from a few shootings. In nine out of ten incidents, the distance was five yards or less.

Regarding the statement "and we probably won't have to shoot him more than once or twice", (1) from what limited data are available, when one is attacked, chances are that there will be more than one attacker; (2) in an unexpected, violent, rapidly unfolding attack, a defender is likely to fire several times at the first attacker; (3) the number of hits is likely to be lower than the number of shots required to achieve those hits; and (4), considering the stakes, one should really think long and hard about the idea of relying upon what one thinks one will "probably" have to do.

I carried a five shot .38 revolver as a primary defensive firearm for some time. I now carry a 9MM semi-auto because of the higher capacity.

 

[chopinbloc]

Those are all good points. I carry a G23 and a spare G22 mag. People who carry a small revolver are better off than not carrying at all.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

Let’s face it; we aren’t likely to need a gun. If we do need a gun, we probably won’t have to fire it. If we do have to fire it, the bad guy probably won’t be farther away than we can smell him and we probably won’t have to shoot more than once or twice.

Statistically that is true. And that is why tear gas or starter guns were popular for defense in the 1950s in urban areas. The look or noise of an "alarm" gun would scare off most bad guys. Shots fired even if blanks would get calls to police and most bad guys would not hang around.

Realistically, I carry for defense in places where there are no police or deputy patrols, cell phone dead zones, where the "bad guy" I might encounter may be a bear, a rabid animal or a feral animal pack (or a squatter running a meth lab or pot patch on someone else's land). If nothing else, I have carried a +P rated snub .38 and practice with a 9"x9" swinger target at 20 paces. But my .357 4" Security Six with 158gr JSP or CZ52 with commercial 7.62x25mm is a bit more comfort. (And I do practice threat avoidance outdoors, especially with snakes or bears. Don't want to shoot if I don't absolutely need to.)

 

[MIL-DOT]

^^ Exactly. Though I wouldn't "bank on them", either, they are the likelihood.

Estimates on defensive-gun-use incidents run between one quarter and three quarters of a million per year in the US. Fewer than a hundred or so involve anyone actually being shot, so the other virtually-one-hundred percent are "no-shot" situations, or situations in which the gun is fired but no one is hit (warning shots or misses.)

Well said, I agreed with the OP's point, right off, and have tried to make the same point here and on other forums many times. But ,I always run into the wanna-be-commandos that insist there's a more-than-reasonable chance they'll be set upon by a half-dozen fiercely committed ninja/zombies, in order to justify EDC-ing a G17 with 17 rounds in the mag and one in the pipe, plus two extra magazines.
Supposedly, as I understand, the fact that I "only" carry a little S&W Airweight .38, I don't value my life and am not likely long for this world.

 

[lobo9er]

I agree with mil-dot and even after reading still feel safe while carrying my sp101.
Not sure if this is fitting but heres a quote from a famous soap maker "safety is an illusion"...

 

[Haywood]

I go with street results. NYPD and LAPD are happy with the Gold Dot 135g. Results on the street from 2" and 4" Revolvers. That's good enough for me.

 

[lowercase]

I like to carry a 642 or a Model 60 with Buffalo Bore hard cast .38spl wadcutters.

 

[Tallball]

It's not assumption, it's just statistics. Those statements are all true. We choose to carry so that we can be prepared for an UNLIKELY event. If being attacked and needing to engage multiple attackers at 25m+ was a statistical likelihood, either you are a soldier or you need to move.

Well said.

I feel just fine with my little .38 snub in my pocket. It has no hammer spur and slides out of my pocket easily. In the winter I can have it in my coat pocket, where having my hand looks natural, and even shoot through the pocket if I need to. And everything I have ever shot with a .38 has died.

I feel even finer carrying my 2" .44 special, but it is on a medium frame and is awkward to conceal sometimes.

 

[Old Dog]

Good luck, guys. I don't buy insurance based on the most likely scenario, I buy it based on the worst case scenario.

These days, I feel most confident if I've got a SIG with 15+1 rounds of hot-stepping +Ps and an 18-round reload.

It really isn't more of an effort to pack a SIG P-228 or 229 than it is to carry a S&W 442 or 642. My snubby's dirty little secret is that it's relegated to a back-up role in an ankle or pocket holster. I'm no longer active duty wandering the dirty streets of Ramadi, don't need to move from my semi-rural suburb, and surely ain't a wannable commando ... But I just don't plan around what the best-case worst thing to happen to me might be, just the worst-case worst thing that might happen.

 

[Phaedrus/69]

I'm pretty confident in the effectiveness of the 158gr LSWC out of a snub. It's been pretty well proven and has a good track record. For the record I'll admit that if I knew I was going into an unavoidable situation where I had to use a handgun to fight with I'd rather have my HK P30S, USPf9 or VP9. But very often the gun I actually carry is my Ruger LCR.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by Phaedrus/69: For the record I'll admit that if I knew I was going into an unavoidable situation where I had to use a handgun to fight with I'd rather have my HK P30S, USPf9 or VP9. But very often the gun I actually carry is my Ruger LCR.

No law abiding person other than a sworn officer will ever "know" they are about to have to use a weapon, or even that the likelihood may be high. Otherwise that person should stay home or go somewhere else.

But to carry something that one would not select for real defensive purposes does not seem sensical to me.

For some time, I carried a model 642 Centennial, knowing that it would be less than desirable should I really need to use it, on the basis of the assumption that the need was unlikely.

Then someone on THR pointed out that should the need actually arise, that assumption would be meaningless.

The Centennial now serves as backup.

 

[HexHead]

I disagree. Normally, for where I live, I feel carrying a revolver is sufficient. There are parts of town, where if I have to go, I will carry heavier.

And if I go to Memphis, I not only carry heavier, I make sure my wife is carrying too.

 

[GBExpat]

I sometimes carry an almost snubbie (one of two 2½" .44Spc Bulldogs) that slips easily in & out of a coat pocket (I also have pancake & pocket holsters). With that I carry one reload strip when leaving home.

I am currently carrying factory-rolled 200gr GoldDots, but I am in the process of developing my own SD loads for this pistol.

If I can develop a borderline comfortable load in which 200gr GoldDots perform to my satisfaction, I will also prepare a supply of "winter" ammo with the same load topped with 200gr non-expanding bullets (probably Plated SWCs).

If the GoldDots don't work out, I will investigate year-round, non-expanding, heavy & slow loads for the Bulldogs.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by HexHead: I disagree. Normally, for where I live, I feel carrying a revolver is sufficient.

What is sufficient has nothing to do with the likelihood that the need will materialize, or with how one feels.

If one has to use a gun, the need will most probably be the same, regardless.

One needs to look at the conditional probability--the probability that if one has to shoot, the gun and tactics and skill will suffice.

If it were proper to look at the cumulative probability--that is, to take into account the likelihood that the event will occur--we would all equip our kitchens with one ounce fire extinguishers and use seat belts made out of tissue paper.

That's a very basic risk management concept.

Now, we may sometimes choose to not carry at all, but that has nothing to do with whether we should be carrying one kind of firearm vs. another.