The Snubby's Dirty Little Secret

[KenW.]

I did some research when I got my M-36. SW says +P's are alright in all their steel framed revolvers even if not stamped for +P. I've just decided to not feed it a steady diet of +P, but do carry them as defensive ammo.

 

[NWCP]

When going to the grocery, or out at night for dinner I carry my Series 2 Colt Detective Special with a 2" barrel. It's light, comfortable in my Kramer IWB and I shoot it well. Otherwise I carry my HK45C in a Kramer extreme cant IWB loaded with 230 grain Hyra-Shoks. It is a single stack 10 round pistol that works well for me. Sometimes I'll carry a spare mag in my vehicle, other times not. I avoid bad areas when at all possible and pay attention to my surroundings.

I also carry a Surefire 500 lumen flashlight. If the potential trouble is far enough away, that will blind them long enough at night for me to head the other way while dialing 911. I don't ever to intend to shoot another human being, but should I have to the little Colt at close range, or the HK will do the job. Personally I've always carried a handgun when permitted by law, but practice avoiding trouble. Life is much less stressful that way. JMHO

 

[chopinbloc]

You may wish to consider changing to 230 gr HST, Gold Dot, or Ranger T. Hydrashok is known for a higher failure rate than more modern JHP designs.

 

[GBExpat]

Come-on. Nothing funny about a 7 shot L frame.

I feel compelled to say ... Damn, that's a beautiful pistol!

 

[Phaedrus/69]

No law abiding person other than a sworn officer will ever "know" they are about to have to use a weapon, or even that the likelihood may be high. Otherwise that person should stay home or go somewhere else.

But to carry something that one would not select for real defensive purposes does not seem sensical to me.

For some time, I carried a model 642 Centennial, knowing that it would be less than desirable should I really need to use it, on the basis of the assumption that the need was unlikely.

Then someone on THR pointed out that should the need actually arise, that assumption would be meaningless.

The Centennial now serves as backup.

I think you're reading into this things I'm not saying. Obviously no one but LEO or military in their right mind would go somewhere knowing there was a gunfight coming; that would be nonsensical. You can arm yourself as though you are certain to need a gun or certain you won't need one. For many (most?) it's somewhere in between. I've CCW'd for 25 years or so and never once have I come close to drawing my sidearm. This has no bearing on my odds of needing it tomorrow of course.

I can appreciate the idea of having one carry gun (or several copies of the same gun) and being consistent. But I don't foresee that happening for me. I sometimes CCW in places where carry, while legal, would result in my being asked to leave. In that case I can 1) carry a full sized gun and hope for the best, 2) wear a smaller gun that doesn't print so much or 3) stay at home. In 100 degree weather wearing extra clothes to cover a gun screams "GUN!" and it impractical.

So we come back to philosophy. I agree that one should carry the most effective fighting gun possible. But nonsensical as it may be circumstances sometimes will dictate carrying a different gun.

 

[BIGGBAY90]

I never heard of someone saying "ouch, I got shot with a .38cal but your bullet did not expand

 

[Hometeached1]

Thanks to the OP for an informative article.

It sounds like the answer is to carry +P in a snubby. I read somewhere - and it would be great if someone could confirm this - that S&W says any of their all steel guns can handle the +P load.

You sure can! There is some debate about this, but the .38+P of today is lower pressure than the the .38 special of days gone by.

Here's a article on the subject.
http://shootingwithhobie.blogspot.com/2009/01/p-phenomenon-by-saxonpig.html

Kleanbore, in his book "The snubby revolver" Ed Lovette talks about how used to the 5 shot snubbie was thought of as a backup gun and how the six shot snubbies like the DS and 2.5" or 2" k-frames are much easier to shoot well. I can attest to it as well. I have a bone stock 642 and a bone stock (except for being rendered DAO.) 2" model 10 and I can shoot the model 10 much better than the 642, granted the m10 weighs twice as much and has a 8.5ish lb trigger pull vs the 10.3ish lb pull of the 642. If you can I'd highly recommend shooting and hopefully get a Colt D-frame or a S&W k-frame snubbie.

 

[Slamfire]

Good article, nice points.

The 38 Special in a snubbie gives me the best combination of power and small size. I don't want anything of less power than a 38 Special, and I don't want more bulk.

This is my favorite carry pistol, no hammer to snag, lightweight, compact.

 

[R.W.Dale]

I never heard of someone saying "ouch, I got shot with a .38cal but your bullet did not expand

Lee Harvey Oswald certainly did an ouchie face. Right before going to meet Beelzebub in person.

 

[Onward Allusion]

Interesting read. Some valid points. Bottom line is that one should carry whatever they are comfortable with to protect their lives or that of their loved ones. I don't judge. It ain't my life, unless I'm walking down the street with you while expecting you to protect my life. In that case, I'm likely to be carrying my own.

So, carry what you want, be it a high cap 9mm, 6 shot 357, an ancient revolver in 32S&W, or even a frying pan. It doesn't matter to anyone but the person carrying or the loved ones around them. THAT's the thing that people need to understand. It isn't their life.

Heck, I carry a 357 with a NY reload in 380, 22 Mag, or 32 ACP. If I know I'm going to be going out late at night or to the woods, I carry a hi cap 9mm as the NY reload. Might be overkill for some. Might not be enough for others. AND THAT's the point.

 

[Anmut]

Not my photo, but it is my new carry gun. 60-14 in .357. Love it. People will argue about the stopping power of 38sp, nobody argues with 357.

 

[PistolPete45]

love a revolver & have several snubbys in the family Old 90's Taurus 431 is my most carried 5 shot 44 special , SP101 357 Smith J frame and NAA 22 Mini mag . Can hit what I want at 30 feet with any of them . Golf balls welll I need to be closer for those . 55 gallon drum no problem

 

[camsdaddy]

love a revolver & have several snubbys in the family Old 90's Taurus 431 is my most carried 5 shot 44 special , SP101 357 Smith J frame and NAA 22 Mini mag . Can hit what I want at 30 feet with any of them . Golf balls welll I need to be closer for those . 55 gallon drum no problem

I guess if you are attacked by a 55 gallon drum you are in luck. If you are attacked by a golf ball you are in trouble.

 

[Anmut]

55g drums scare me more than golf balls. Heck most of the time the golf ball will hide from me. Usually on the 2nd shot.

 

[mgkdrgn]

My little snubby has a secret, its not a 38 special, its a 357 mag!

125grn Barnes XPB's loaded to about 1200fps (2.25 DAO sp101)

That truth will hurt.

Mine has a secret too ... it's 45 Colt! (there ain't no school like old school)

 

[tiamat]

Having just entered the world of revolvers with my own snub nose .38, a S&W airweight 637, I found this article very eye opening.

But I think many of you would do well to read the full article and see the videos, especially those that are saying 'load +P rounds and you'll be all good', as that is exactly what the original article is about.

Modern .38 spl SD ammo such as Speer Gold Dot 125gr +P and 135gr +P, Winchester PDX1 130gr +P failed to expand when cold out of a 2" (or less) barrel. Unfortunately, the article fails to mention what 'cold' is exactly (other than a mention of putting the gun and ammo in a ziplock bag surrounded by ice water).

The article goes on to show that warmer temperatures have positive (but marginal) effects, and that the same ammo fired from longer barrels (4" in his example) perform as intended.

I think I will be picking up a box of Buffalo Bore 158 gr LSWCHP +P, which appear to work well from short barrels.

ETA:
I've made reference to this once before on this site, but here is a link regarding a self defense shooting that happened in Missouri a few years back.
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/988015_My_CCW_Shooting_AAR__Now_with_More_Graphic_Pics_on_pg_29_and_30.html&page=29
The victim took 4 out of 5 rounds from a snub nose .38 (a S&W 36 I believe) at point-blank to across-the-room distances - one in each hand, one in his shoulder which exited his arm pit, and one grazed his stomach. He survived. Rounds used out of the .38 were Speer +P (no other info about weight, grains, bullet type that I recall). You can see more pics at that link I posted.




as you can see from this pic, there was no expansion.

 

[chopinbloc]

First, thank you for actually reading the article. It's funny how many folks have an opinion about what they think someone is saying.

I can't tell you exact temperatures but ambient temperature the day I accidentally discovered the problem was about 40° F. Temperature for later tests should be very close to 32° F because I used ice water to keep the gun and ammo cold.

 

[Anmut]

I've read a lot of things about the .38sp and it's ability to penetrate / expand / etc. It's one of the reasons I moved to a J-frame 357.

You'll find arguments all over the internet for and against ever type of round. Personally I carry what I'm comfortable with and can shoot on target well on a timer.

And the 60-14 is a beautiful piece for CC.

 

[Panzerschwein]

I keep my S&W Model 642-1 Centennial airweight "hammerless" double-action only .38 special (+P rated) centerfire revolver stocked with Barami Hip Grips and where the gun on the waistline, right against my underwear. It should stay relatively warm enough there to not effect ballistics too much even in cold weather.

This news doth not surprise thee. It is well known that cold weather reduces velocities, reduced velocity can reduce expansion/and or penetration, so it's best to "keep em warm" as it were when the weather starts to dip and Santa Claus makes his rounds for all the good girls and boys.