The Sun Never Sets on the Lee-Enfield! (Mumbai Attacks)

[Pulse]

i seen plenty of SIG550 and 551 used once the special forces went in.
while the SMLE and FAL are nice rifles, they do have modern and more appropriate equipment at hands.

 

[TomcatPC]

I have two Lee-Enfield Rifles, one is a 1940 Birmingham Small Arms made No.1 Mk.III, and the other is a 1942 Savage made No.4 Mk.I*, I really like both of them. I have every intention of buying more as times goes by, hopefully I can get a Magazine Lee Metford or Magazine Lee Enfield version one day. I have very little negative to say about the Lee-Enfield Rifle (any variant). If it still works...

The L1A1 SLR rifles (I think the original was called the FN-FAL?, I know extremely little about them) the Indians also use, are they made in India?, like the Lee-Enfield was made by Rifle Factory Ishapore?
Thanks
Mark

 

[HorseSoldier]

The L1A1 SLR rifles (I think the original was called the FN-FAL?, I know extremely little about them) the Indians also use, are they made in India?, like the Lee-Enfield was made by Rifle Factory Ishapore?

Yep, they're made in India. If I'm not mistaken, the Indian FAL was actually an unlicensed copy and mixed features of the original metric FAL and the British/Commonwealth L1A1 inch pattern rifles.

 

[2RCO]

The SMLE is/was a great gun but seeing it still in use circa 2008 is a wakeup. This was the first thing I noticed in the footage of the attacks I saw. I gues however it's not much different than some of the small town LEO's who still carry model 94 winchesters in the trunks of their cruisers.

 

[cracked butt]

I'm betting the LEOs that responded to the North Hollywood robbery would have loved to have some SMLEs handy when they went up against similarly armed criminals.

 

[Ignition Override]

Were the Indians planning to use the FALs and LEs inside hotels if necessary?

Wouldn't the FALs be awkward to maneuver inside most buildings compared to an AR or G-3, or the terrorists' AKs?
Maybe the Indian army can't affort to replace these.

Is it ironic that the Indian Air Force operated lots of Soviet aircraft over the years., i.e. the Mig 21, 23 and 27, SU-30 plus IL-76/78...
( and a mix of French Mirage, Franco-British Jaguars, among others)?
Naval Air: Tu-142, IL-38 etc.
Many Soviet-built helicopters were in the Army.

Do their local army units have few or no AKs?

 

[HorseSoldier]

Maybe the Indian army can't affort to replace these.

Indian army switched to other weapons decades ago -- the guys using them now are police. I'm not sure if they're still in service because the Indian government couldn't afford to replace them, or if the government didn't want to issue more modern/military type weapons to law enforcement.

 

[Jenrick]

An FAL or an SMLE is going to be no less awkward then a fullsize Remington 870. Plus you've got a lot more rounds on tap, that have a much longer range. If I had to grab just one long arm out of my personal stash, I'd grab my work AR as it's setup for things like this already.

I'd certainly take an FAL over an SMLE also just to have more rounds on tap if nothing else. On the other hand I'd take my SMLE over my squad cars 870 any day of the week. A .303 soft point is going to blow through soft body armor and put a big hole in someone even a couple hundred yards away. I can run the action faster then I can my 870, and I've got 4 more rounds on tap. Oh an I can fix a fricking huge bayonet on it if I need too The SMLE was designed as a fighting rifle. The 870 is a sporting shotgun that is often used in fights.

-Jenrick

 

[yokel]

Although we live in an age of increasingly sophisticated and complex weapons systems there is still a real need for delivering discriminatory, highly accurate rifle fire against enemy targets, which cannot be engaged successfully by the average Security Forces member because of range, size, location, fleeting nature, or visability.

Assuming the police are thoroughly trained and proficient with an Enfield, they could certainly cramp a jihadist's style.

To lay down effective volley fire would the effort of the Rifle Group as a whole.

 

[woodybrighton]

From what I've seen a lot of Indian police get a enfield or SLR as a carry weapon rather than a Handgun.
They have a huge army so plenty of hand me downs there not riding around in cars so not a problem about carrying. anyone will shoot a rifle better than a handgun and they intimidate

 

[RX-178]

I don't know about those INSAS rifles. I mean, a semi sporter version would be pretty cool. But as for the actual assault rifle?

Something about an AK with 3 round burst makes me go 'eeeeh...'.

 

[Blacksmoke]

I'm betting the LEOs that responded to the North Hollywood robbery would have loved to have some SMLEs handy when they went up against similarly armed criminals.

-crackedbutt

I was hunkered down in my Landcruiser across the street from that incident (Sears parking lot). All I could think about at the time was "why did I leave my Garand at home?

One or two well placed shots would have ended that fiasco. Your post also reminded me of a small town LEO in northern California back in the early 1970s. He used to carry his Johnson autoloading rifle in the trunk of the police car he drove. At the time, I thought he was some kind of nut. Who would guessed he was ahead of his time?

 

[cameraclickingfool]

Enfield rifle

Granted the Enfield would not be the best weapon to storm a building with and fight close quarters. However, it is adequate if used by a trained shooter posted behind cover outside a surrounded building. If one of the terrorist had stuck his head out of a window or tried to flee the building, he would be SOL.

 

[Blacksmoke]

From the footage shown on TV it appeared that many of the police armed with Enfields were a good distance from the buildings. Had the perps emerged from the hotels with AKs blazing the large number of Indian police with Enfields and army with FNs would have sent a blizzard downrange matching the firepower of the AKs on full auto. Too bad that did not happen for the TV crews .

 

[NC-Mike]

It would seem the Indian police are completely inept and I would also include their choice of weapons in that judgment.

The entire carnage was perpetrated by ten men...

This thing should have been over 1 hour after the first shots were fired.

 

[cameraclickingfool]

Mumbai terrorists

NC Mike,

It is easy to "arm chair quarterback."

Consider the following:

The terrorist had the element of surprise.
They were well trained, and armed.
They had a plan / purpose and knew where they were going.
They took hostages.
The police / military had no idea what and how many they were dealing with.
The terrorist were in buildings, some with many rooms. The good guys had a lot of ground to cover.

The objective of a situation like this is to neutralize the enemy and and the same time minimize innocent casualities.

I applaud the bravery of police / military. They also suffered casualities.

 

[rbernie]

From the footage shown on TV it appeared that many of the police armed with Enfields were a good distance from the buildings.

The Enfield 2A's have been 'home guard' weapons (designed for drill and presence, mostly) since the Indians started making them. They were subordinate to the FAL, and then to the INSAS. As far as I know, no regular/non-reserve military unit in India carries the Enfield.

The point is that when you see an Indian military presence armed with Enfields, understand that you are not looking at their front-line troops, much less their SpecOps types.

Frankly, having had many Enfield 2A's - they're not cut from the same cloth as the 'real' SMLE, much less the No4 or No5.

 

[mr.trooper]

NEW brass cased 303 is STILL significantly cheaper than 308. the only 308 that compares price wise to Privi / Barnaul 303 is Steel cased brown bear. Ick.

Additionally, FMJ 303 is far more deadly than FMJ 308. The 303 will have either an aluminum or wooden core tip underneath the jacket. This has the same effect as the air pocket found in 5.45 ammunition, causing the bullet to tumble and yaw dramatically on impact. The 308 will have a single piece lead or steal core, boring a single large hole, causing secondary damage due to energy transfer.

With training, the Enfield is capable of aimed fire at the same rate as a semi-automatic. Additionally, I MUCH prefer the No4 to the original SMLE; it sights are far better, and its take down devices for cleaning are much simpler to manipulate.

You would certainly have to adapt your tactics if you were taking on baddies with full autos, but it should theoretically be doable.

 

[Blacksmoke]

I may be wrong but the "troops" armed with the SMLE were policemen not army.

 

[NC-Mike]

NC Mike,

It is easy to "arm chair quarterback."

Consider the following:

The terrorist had the element of surprise.
They were well trained, and armed.
They had a plan / purpose and knew where they were going.
They took hostages.
The police / military had no idea what and how many they were dealing with.
The terrorist were in buildings, some with many rooms. The good guys had a lot of ground to cover.

The objective of a situation like this is to neutralize the enemy and and the same time minimize innocent casualities.

I applaud the bravery of police / military. They also suffered casualities.

Time for new rules.

Canada I believe has already adopted a rapid response. From this incident which lasted three days? to Virginia Tech, the people calling the shots have to go in hard and fast and not allow time for slaughter to take place. Think it would have went down the same way in in say Tel Aviv?

This is a new game and its only a matter of time till it happens here. It also clearly demonstrates that right now, you are on your own in if happen to be in a building with armed and hostile actors.

I'm in no way impugning the bravery of those on the ground but I am certainly questioning the strategy and tactics of those that called the shots. They probably slaughtered close to 300 people. The plan was to kill 5,000.

There were ten trained men. Imagine that. Just look at what 10 trained men with death wishes and automatic firearms can do. This was no job for police, this called for a military response and a damn fast one. We had better get used to this kind of thing happening and better be prepared to deal with it. Fast.

 

[HorseSoldier]

NEW brass cased 303 is STILL significantly cheaper than 308. the only 308 that compares price wise to Privi / Barnaul 303 is Steel cased brown bear. Ick.

For retail this may be true.

If you're a government buying training and go to war loads of ammunition for MAG machineguns and various other 7.62x51 weapons, but don't have anyone using .303 except for police who don't do much firearms training or usage, you're probably losing an an economies of scale kind of thing.

With training, the Enfield is capable of aimed fire at the same rate as a semi-automatic. Additionally, I MUCH prefer the No4 to the original SMLE; it sights are far better, and its take down devices for cleaning are much simpler to manipulate.

I can believe that from a prone at distant targets, but at typical combat ranges, especially urban fight ranges and shooting conditions, the advantage is going to be decisively on the side of the autoloader.

You would certainly have to adapt your tactics if you were taking on baddies with full autos, but it should theoretically be doable.

I think that in the current incident, the guys who were issued Lee-Enfields were not a very high priority for firearms or tactical training. With much better training they might have been at less of a disadvantage going head to head with assault rifles, but if they're worth enough to train well, they're going to be worth providing better weapons to as well.

 

[mr.trooper]

True. I don't pretend the Enfield is still the end-all of battle field weaponry. I'm just pointing out that it IS still a capable weapon.

It should be pointed out that Enfield "volley fire" can be used on the move, at typical engagement ranges (it was done quite often with great effect). It is not limited to stationary prone positions, at fixed targets.

 

[cameraclickingfool]

NC Mike,

I agree that we will in all probability face a similar situation. I won't be surprised if it is in the near future.

America's best defense is the armed citizen. If terrorist would pull a similar stunt in the states, it would be important to have armed indivituals in the vicinity with CWP's who could quickly take them out.

This is the tactic Israel adopted I believe in the 1970's. If a terrorist tries to pull something in public, he will quickly look like a piece of swiss cheese.

A woman Jewish co-worker once told me that while living in Israel that she carried a pistol in her purse at all times.

As Oliver Cromwell said during the English Civil war of the 1640's,
"Put your trust in the Lord and keep your powder dry."

 

[armoredman]

Question...did anyone see the police officers with Enfields carrying any spare ammo? I didn't notice any bandoliers/pouches or such - is it possible they were issued with 5-10 rounds on chargers, and that was it, which could explain some reluctance to engage.
Just a thought.

 

[James T Thomas]

to be or not to be

This post bears no resemblance to any person ficticious or real, and is offered only in the spirit of contribution to the topic.

The times when I was down to a hand full of rounds, I did make every round count, but had no hesitation to engage what so ever.

Today, in quiet civilian life, I usually have only six or sometimes five rounds available for immediate response, and yet I will not even give it a moments consideration as to fight or not, for my own life or that of the defenseless.

I could, I suppose, arm myself with a firearm of far greater capacity, but my experience is that the ability to fire in defense beyond several rounds at a given moment is greatly over estimated. And I will not decide to act based on my ammunition store or capacity before reloading.

I'm confident in my skill and in my weapon, and if a terrorist, murderer, or felon forces me by their actions to take aim on them I will do my best to survive and eliminate the threat.

If I could somehow change my magical handgun in a moment to an Endfield with ten rounds in it, anywhere, in the "field" I would love it. No hesitation.