The tale of 4 bullets - need advice please

[vaalpens]

I have started reloading 38/357 over the last few weeks, and started my reloading using bullets I received in a PIF from Dudedog. These bullets have been a great help to me finding my feet and helping me to decide what bullets I want to buy going forward.

I am at that point now where I need to make some decisions regarding bullet purchase, but my results, even though consistent is not helping with the decision. My testing so far has not been perfect since I am still trying to come up with a target that gives me enough contrast at 10+ yards with the Ruger SP101 sights, to allow me to remove most of me as an influence on my accuracy testing. I'm not there yet, so the groupings are not great, but at least it gives me an idea of what I can expect regarding POI.

Please note that all the testing below was done at 10yards with standard Ruger SP101 sights and a 3" barrel. The POA on all these targets are aligning my sights just below the 2" x .25" white. The pink paper was just to see if I can use the same target as what I use for my other guns.

First up is the MBC 158gr coated SWC 18 Brinell bullet. My reference load is 3.5gr of Bullseye in a 38special case, and I can see it is where I want it to be, with a little bit of fine tuning to come. No problem with the POI of these loads.

Second up is the MBC 140gr coated Cone 18 Brinell bullet. My reference load is 3.6gr of Bullseye in a 38special case. The grouping of this load is getting close to where I want it, with one flyer, but the POI is starting to be a little bit lower.

Third up is HSM 125gr plated FN bullets. These bullets have shown some good accuracy, but the POI is about 2" below where it should be. The reference load is using 5.5gr of BE-86 in a 38 special case.

Fourth and fifth are two different loads using the RMR 125gr plated HP bullet. After shooting the first load, I wasn't sure if I was aiming at the top or bottom target, even though it should have been at the top target. So for the second load I aimed at the top target again, with basically the same results. The grouping you see are 10 shots aiming at the top target. The POI is 3.5" to 5" below the POA.

I understand that some of results are due to me, but it seems that the plated lower weight bullets tend to shoot low. I'm not sure if this is due to the load, the crimp or gun, but this is a bit puzzling to me, especially since I don't have much experience loading 38/357.

As always, and comments or advice will be highly appreciated.

 

[fireman 9731]

Lighter bullets tend to shoot lower in handguns. Your sights are probably regulated for the standard 158 grain load. You can file down your front sight until POA matched POI with the lighter loads, if that is what you want to shoot exclusively.

Or you can stick to heavier loads.

Thats the downside to fixed sight handguns. Different bullet weights will provide different impact points. Pick one load and stick with it and know where it hits.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Comparing the POI of a standard .38 Special load to a .357 Magnum load is a waste of time and components. The POI is just too different because of the wide velocity spread.

 

[vaalpens]

Lighter bullets tend to shoot lower in handguns. Your sights are probably regulated for the standard 158 grain load. You can file down your front sight until POA matched POI with the lighter loads, if that is what you want to shoot exclusively.

Or you can stick to heavier loads.

Thats the downside to fixed sight handguns. Different bullet weights will provide different impact points. Pick one load and stick with it and know where it hits.

fireman 9731, thanks for your analysis. It makes sense what you say, but I would probably not go that far and file down my front sight. It is just strange that there is that much difference in POI between the HSM and RMR 125gr bullets. I wonder if the thicker plating or bullet diameter has something to do with it. The RMR is .3585" and the HSM .3575"

 

[vaalpens]

Comparing the POI of a standard .38 Special load to a .357 Magnum load is a waste of time and components. The POI is just too different because of the wide velocity spread.

ArchAngelCD, thanks for the feedback.

All the loads were actually 38 special loads, with some maybe in the 38 special +p range.

I think I just want to understand the difference, and then decide how I want to handle it going forward. I definitely don't want to waste time and components to try and get the same POI. I would rather just know what to expect and enjoy the loads.

 

[Shaq]

Since the groups are pretty tight, you can definitely conclude that your gun is sighted for the 158 gr. bullet. As the range increases, the differences in POI will also increase. The shorter barrels of handguns makes the POI more sensitive to different bullet weights. I like my handguns to hit where I'm aiming out to 15 yards.

 

[vaalpens]

Since the groups are pretty tight, you can definitely conclude that your gun is sighted for the 158 gr. bullet. As the range increases, the differences in POI will also increase. The shorter barrels of handguns makes the POI more sensitive to different bullet weights. I like my handguns to hit where I'm aiming out to 15 yards.

Shaq, thanks for the information.

I have not seen this big a variance in my other handguns, but they are all autos and my bullets are normally about the same weight.

I think I should probably buy some factory SD ammo at some point and validate the POI. This should then at least give me some information on what to expect.

 

[Dudedog]

I like the 140s as a compromise between 125 and 158. Still haven't decided on a favorite for .357, so busy playing with stuff in 9mm....
I am going to try to do a ladder on the RMR 125s with a couple powders, maybe HP38 and BE86. Think I have some Bullseye left so it is a possible as well.
Will post for you and everybody when I have the results.

By the way, not bad groups you have quite a few touching.

POI in a revolver with fixed sights can vary lots due to bullet weight and vels, not something you run into as much in semi autos. Big vel diff between .38 and Full power .357 at least 200fps if not more.
Sometimes instead of filing the front sight you can but a dab of fingernail polish on the middle and use it as the "top" of the front, if you can convince yourself to line up with the spot.
A cheap bottle is a bit a little over a $1 and comes off easy with acetone. (pick your favorite color Orange, pink red, lots to chose from.)
I did the black front sight on my 1911 .45 with a dab of orange and liked it. (for contrast only not POI)
It's cheap so maybe worth a try.
(I am a single guy so I had to buy polish, none laying about to appropriate borrow at your own risk)

 

[vaalpens]

I like the 140s as a compromise between 125 and 158. Still haven't decided on a favorite for .357, so busy playing with stuff in 9mm....
I am going to try to do a ladder on the RMR 125s with a couple powders, maybe HP38 and BE86. Think I have some Bullseye left so it is a possible as well.
Will post for you and everybody when I have the results.

By the way, not bad groups you have quite a few touching.

POI in a revolver with fixed sights can vary lots due to bullet weight and vels, not something you run into as much in semi autos. Big vel diff between .38 and Full power .357 at least 200fps if not more.
Sometimes instead of filing the front sight you can but a dab of fingernail polish on the middle and use it as the "top" of the front, if you can convince yourself to line up with the spot.
A cheap bottle is a bit a little over a $1 and comes off easy with acetone. (pick your favorite color Orange, pink red, lots to chose from.)
I did the black front sight on my 1911 .45 with a dab of orange and liked it. (for contrast only not POI)
It's cheap so maybe worth a try.
(I am a single guy so I had to buy polish, none laying about to appropriate borrow at your own risk)

Dudedog,

Thanks for information. We will be looking forward to your load workup for the RMR 125gr bullet.

With auto calibers the lower pressure normally meant a higher POI. With these 125's, I don't think I can go much lower since they are plated.

My thought process at the moment is to aim for a specific velocity based on factory ammo, and try both 38 special+p and 357mag. Then evaluate the POI again.

The velocities I saw with the 125gr bullets in 38special were the following:

38spl+p, SP101, 3"
COL: 1.423"
HSM, 125gr, PFN, BE86, 5.4gr, CCI500
Average: 748
ES: 92
SD: 34
Force: 155
PF: 93
Velocities: 698, 766, 790, 746, 743

38spl+p, SP101, 3"
COL: 1.447"
RMR, 125gr, RNPHP, BE86, 5.5gr, CCI500
Average: 752
ES: 87
SD: 35.2
Force: 157
PF: 94
Velocities: 704, 791, 782, 737, 749

38spl+p, SP101, 3"
COL: 1.447"
RMR, 125gr, RNPHP, Longshot, 6.3gr, CCI500
Average: 751
ES: 140
SD: 52.6
Force: 157
PF: 93
Velocities: 835, 757, 748, 695, 722

These ES/SD numbers are really bad, so even with the decent grouping, it seems the pressure needs to be increased.

I think I want to increase the velocity by at least 100fps and evaluate again. Both these bullets should be able to handle velocities around 850-900fps.

It would be nice to get a 125gr or 135gr bullet working to withing SD velocities with similar POI's.

 

[Shaq]

Another issue (rather amusing).
Someone may tell you that higher velocity bullets of the same weights will hit higher than lower velocity because "the gun recoils while the bullet is still in the barrel." As a new shooter, I've read that in gun magazines. WRONG! That myth was believed before slow-motion video technology revealed that the bullet is long gone before the gun even starts to recoil:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7y9apnbI6GA

 

[TimSr]

I understand that some of results are due to me, but it seems that the plated lower weight bullets tend to shoot low. I'm not sure if this is due to the load, the crimp or gun, but this is a bit puzzling to me, especially since I don't have much experience loading 38/357.

Its a matter of velocity that affects the height of impact, and not bullet weight. Lighter bullets tend to be loaded faster than heavier bullets, giving people that impression. If you shoot some 158gr .357 mag loads, you'll find them hitting low as well. Semi's have the same issue. The higher the velocity, the lower the point of impact.

I sure as heck wouldn't be filing on my front sight until I've determined what load I'm going to base sighting it on.

 

[vaalpens]

Another issue (rather amusing).
Someone may tell you that higher velocity bullets of the same weights will hit higher than lower velocity because "the gun recoils while the bullet is still in the barrel." As a new shooter, I've read that in gun magazines. WRONG! That myth was believed before slow-motion video technology revealed that the bullet is long gone before the gun even starts to recoil:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7y9apnbI6GA

Shaq, good information to point out, thanks.

The 38/357 is just a different animal for me so I just need to try a few things to see if it makes any difference. It can't hurt to try and get the loads to perform more efficiently and then see if it makes a difference in the POI. There was a difference in POI between the HSM and RMR bullets, so there is something other than weight of the bullet in play.

My uninformed non-professional guess is that I should probably look at bullet obturation, and hopefully more pressure will help with that.

 

[vaalpens]

Its a matter of velocity that affects the height of impact, and not bullet weight. Lighter bullets tend to be loaded faster than heavier bullets, giving people that impression. If you shoot some 158gr .357 mag loads, you'll find them hitting low as well. Semi's have the same issue. The higher the velocity, the lower the point of impact.

I sure as heck wouldn't be filing on my front sight until I've determined what load I'm going to base sighting it on.

TimSr, thanks.

I will be increasing the velocity and see what impact it has. In any case I was planning on upping the velocity for the 125gr bullets to get it closer to SD velocities.

For now I will just treat these as combat sights and cover the target with the front sight. It is the same way I aim my autos.

 

[vaalpens]

I had 14 of the RMR 125gr RNPHP bullets left and decided to up the charge a bit and try a variety of powders to see if the POI stays about the same. At the end I loaded up 7 different loads of 2 each.

These loads were tested at 10 yards from a rest and using a chrono. All loads were shot at one target to show a trend versus POI for one load at a time. The conclusion was that the POI is definitely due to the bullet/lower weight, since everything grouped between 1.5" to 3.5" below POA.

Since I also used the chrono, at least I got some chrono numbers I can share. It is only 2 shots per load, but at least it gives you some idea of what can be achieved:

Ruger SP101, 3" barrel, 38spl+p
COL: 1.447"
RMR, 125gr, RNPHP, 700X, 4.2gr, CCI500
Average: 714
ES: 20
SD: 14.1
Force: 141
PF: 89
Velocities: 724, 704

Ruger SP101, 3" barrel, 38spl+p
COL: 1.447"
RMR, 125gr, RNPHP, BE86, 5.8gr, CCI500
Average: 805
ES: 35
SD: 24.7
Force: 180
PF: 100
Velocities: 823, 788

Ruger SP101, 3" barrel, 38spl+p
COL: 1.447"
RMR, 125gr, RNPHP, Bullseye, 4.6gr, CCI500
Average: 747
ES: 49
SD: 34.6
Force: 155
PF: 93
Velocities: 723, 772

Ruger SP101, 3" barrel, 38spl+p
COL: 1.447"
RMR, 125gr, RNPHP, CFEpistol, 6.1gr, CCI500
Average: 695
ES: 88
SD: 62.2
Force: 134
PF: 86
Velocities: 651, 739

Ruger SP101, 3" barrel, 38spl+p
COL: 1.447"
RMR, 125gr, RNPHP, Longshot, 6.7gr, CCI500
Average: 821
ES: 23
SD: 16.3
Force: 187
PF: 102
Velocities: 810, 833

Ruger SP101, 3" barrel, 38spl+p
COL: 1.447"
RMR, 125gr, RNPHP, PowerPistol, 6.5gr, CCI500
Average: 872
ES: 76
SD: 53.7
Force: 211
PF: 109
Velocities: 910, 834

Ruger SP101, 3" barrel, 38spl+p
COL: 1.447"
RMR, 125gr, RNPHP, Unique, 5.7gr, CCI500
Average: 735
ES: 52
SD: 36.8
Force: 150
PF: 91
Velocities: 709, 761

 

[wbstx11]

I went thru this with my Ruger SP101 snubby, and definitely have significantly higher POI with 38spcl vs 357 (with several people shooting, bench rest, ++.) I have a couple of observations: (1) The "Mythbuster's video is of a semi-auto, which has some delay in recoil due to the mechanism - it's not a fair comparison to a revolver which has instant recoil with barrel movement. (2)the pressure loss through the cylinder gap accentuates load differentuals. The barrel movement (gun rotation) is faster with the shorter barrel and will present a higher POI with slower velocities. We fashioned a no-rise device and found 38 spcl and 357 POI were virtually the same with my Ruger SP101. I did not initially believe this could be possible, but our testing convinced me.

 

[vaalpens]

I went thru this with my Ruger SP101 snubby, and definitely have significantly higher POI with 38spcl vs 357 (with several people shooting, bench rest, ++.) I have a couple of observations: (1) The "Mythbuster's video is of a semi-auto, which has some delay in recoil due to the mechanism - it's not a fair comparison to a revolver which has instant recoil with barrel movement. (2)the pressure loss through the cylinder gap accentuates load differentuals. The barrel movement (gun rotation) is faster with the shorter barrel and will present a higher POI with slower velocities. We fashioned a no-rise device and found 38 spcl and 357 POI were virtually the same with my Ruger SP101. I did not initially believe this could be possible, but our testing convinced me.

wbstx11, thanks for the input you have provided. You have made some interesting observations.

The testing I have done was mostly 38special between 158gr and 125gr bullets. The 158gr bullet definitely had a higher POI vs the 125gr bullets. All this testing was done from a rest, so I'm not sure if it made a difference.

The POI from a rest is probably not that big a deal, as long as I get good grouping. The important thing for me will be shooting at a paper plate at 7-10yards and making sure everything hits nicely in the center.

I have not tested the 125gr bullets off hand yet, but aome 158gr and 140gr bullets were hitting nicely in the center shooting just DA. I have a few of the HSM bullets left, and will shoot those next time off hand DA only to get an idea where it hits.

I normally shoot POA is POI since I have combat sigths on my pistols, so a little bit lower POI is actually good for me.

 

[[email protected]]

Using promo with 125 grain bullets gets me close to POA with my 3 inch SP101 between 10 to 15 yards.

 

[Wildfire]

Post #10 says it right. Higher velocity in a hand gun results in lower hits.
The bullet is well on its way before full recoil happens.
Just an Idea if it is accuracy you want at close range.
Ever try 140 or 148 grain full wad cutters?
Hollow base wad cutters are famous for accuracy at low velocity.

 

[Steve C]

I am at that point now where I need to make some decisions regarding bullet purchase, but my results, even though consistent is not helping with the decision.

I really don't understand your dilemma regarding bullets. Most of my reloading is ammo that will be shot at paper targets and occasionally steel. My choice of bullet is one that's of good quality, shows good accuracy and is reasonably low in price thus for shooting in my .38/.357 mag it's 158gr SWC or LRN. I just bought some Missouri coated RN 12 bnh for loading .38's and find them to be a very accurate bullet. Looks like the MBC 158gr coated SWC's work well for you with your Bullseye load so why not buy those or RN bullets for practice.

If you want to load JHP's for hunting or self defense then buy a a good hollow point in the bullet weight you want and use +P .38 spl or .357 mag loads for that bullet.

Now while faster bullets will shoot lower by a few inches depending upon velocity and bullet weight it is more of a matter of knowing your gun and load and adjusting your point of aim with a fixed or adjustable sighted gun. I don't find any problem with this when shooting my .357's or .38 spl's without having to make any sight adjustment as slower 158gr .38's will hit in the 10 ring at 25 yds holding at 6 o'clock on a standard 25 yd bull and the faster 125 or 158gr jacketed magnums will do the same with a center bull hold.

To illustrate this see the pictures taken a couple months ago. The MBC coated bullets showed such exceptional accuracy on the first 3 off hand sight in shots I took it surprised me. It takes a bit more concentration and effort to hold magnums on target.

 

[TimSr]

This is the dilemma faced by every snubby carrier when choosing self defense ammo. nearly everything marketed as self defense ammo is a light 125 or 135gr bullet at highest velocity which will always shoot very low in fixed sights snubbies.

There is only one way to get the POI higher. That is to reduce velocity.

There is only one way to reduce velocity and maintain energy level. That is to use a heavier bullet.

 

[vaalpens]

Using promo with 125 grain bullets gets me close to POA with my 3 inch SP101 between 10 to 15 yards.

For some reason I have never looked into using promo, but I have seen some good results from bds also using it. Maybe it is one of those powders I need to try out in the future. Thanks for the comments.

 

[vaalpens]

This is the dilemma faced by every snubby carrier when choosing self defense ammo. nearly everything marketed as self defense ammo is a light 125 or 135gr bullet at highest velocity which will always shoot very low in fixed sights snubbies.

There is only one way to get the POI higher. That is to reduce velocity.

There is only one way to reduce velocity and maintain energy level. That is to use a heavier bullet.

TimSr, thanks for the good recap of my dilemma. There is no need for me to shoot everything from 125gr to 158gr, or even higher. I will probably standardize in the 140gr to 158gr range, since they shoot well for me. I just need to dig around a bit more and find a good defensive bullet in that weight range, and then start working up some loads. The 148gr WC falls nicely in that weight range , which I will try out hopefully very soon.

This is fun starting to load a new caliber/cartridge.

 

[vaalpens]

Post #10 says it right. Higher velocity in a hand gun results in lower hits.
The bullet is well on its way before full recoil happens.
Just an Idea if it is accuracy you want at close range.
Ever try 140 or 148 grain full wad cutters?
Hollow base wad cutters are famous for accuracy at low velocity.

Wildfire, thanks for the comments. I am definitely going to try some 148gr wadcutters. I will probably start with the double ended wadcutters for now since my 3" SP101 with standard sights is probably not going to show much difference in accuracy between the HBWC or DEWC bullets. It is not the gun, it is just me and my eyes.

 

[TimSr]

The 148gr WC falls nicely in that weight range , which I will try out hopefully very soon.

That was where I ended because of this dilemma, and because I didn't trust 158gr JHP to properly expand.

The only problem with wadcutters is that its hard to find data for loading to full power 38 spl levels, as most load data is for hollow base wadcutter very light target loads. Cast Double End wadcutters are much better suited to defensive loads and can be loaded much warmer.

The down side of wadcutters is they are horrible in speedloaders so you need to carry something else for reloading.

 

[vaalpens]

I really don't understand your dilemma regarding bullets. Most of my reloading is ammo that will be shot at paper targets and occasionally steel. My choice of bullet is one that's of good quality, shows good accuracy and is reasonably low in price thus for shooting in my .38/.357 mag it's 158gr SWC or LRN. I just bought some Missouri coated RN 12 bnh for loading .38's and find them to be a very accurate bullet. Looks like the MBC 158gr coated SWC's work well for you with your Bullseye load so why not buy those or RN bullets for practice.

If you want to load JHP's for hunting or self defense then buy a a good hollow point in the bullet weight you want and use +P .38 spl or .357 mag loads for that bullet.

Now while faster bullets will shoot lower by a few inches depending upon velocity and bullet weight it is more of a matter of knowing your gun and load and adjusting your point of aim with a fixed or adjustable sighted gun. I don't find any problem with this when shooting my .357's or .38 spl's without having to make any sight adjustment as slower 158gr .38's will hit in the 10 ring at 25 yds holding at 6 o'clock on a standard 25 yd bull and the faster 125 or 158gr jacketed magnums will do the same with a center bull hold.

To illustrate this see the pictures taken a couple months ago. The MBC coated bullets showed such exceptional accuracy on the first 3 off hand sight in shots I took it surprised me. It takes a bit more concentration and effort to hold magnums on target.

Steve C, thanks for sharing your test results and some load data.

You are correct. Knowing your gun and your load, adjustments can be made when you do target shooting. I'm not much of a target shooter, so I like to know when I point and shoot, that I will be able to hit my target.

The 125gr bullets are not going to make that much difference at 10yards, but will show some bigger difference at longer yardage.

I am going to settle on some coated bullets between 140gr and 158gr since they shoot well for me. I will the at some time find a defensive bullet in that range that will work for me, and work up some matching loads for practicing and actual defense.