The topic is free-floated barrels and my M77

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wbwanzer

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Some of you have seen my post about the Ruger M77 Mk II that I bought over the weekend. The barrel on that 20 year old rifle is not free-floated. Looking at the picture of the fore end it is obvious that it couldn't be. It has those two screws going through it (see picture below).

So I was thinking about an online article written by Chuck Hawks that I had read. In the article titled Compared: Bolt Action Economy Rifles Chuck had this to say about today's free-floated barrels, "Barrels are typically free-floating, because it is a cheap way to avoid the time and cost involved in precisely bedding the barreled action into the stock. While a free-floating barrel is widely (but deceptively) advertised as an accuracy feature, the truth is sporter weight barrels usually shoot more accurately when bedded full length in a rigid stock. Heavyweight varmint and bench rest rifle barrels are typically more accurate when free floating. Sporter barrels and heavy contour barrels are not the same and should be bedded differently, a distinction ignored in all but one of our economy rifles."

So is my 20 year old M77 Mark II not free-floating because it's 20 years old and the new wave of budget rifles hadn't come along yet? Is it not free-floated because that barrel needed to have pressure points half way down the barrel?

I have not taken the stock off of the barrel yet because I'm assuming that there is a certain amount of torque required to properly set those screws and I don't have a torque wrench.

So any thoughts you wish to share about free-floating barrels and lack of free-floating in the M77 MK II?

Thanks for your input if you do.

Edited to add that I have not shot this rifle yet and I'm not asking you folks whether I should make any modifications. This is just a discussion about free-floating barrels and maybe why the M77 wasn't.


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All of my bolt action rifles are free floated. It doesn't matter if they are sporter wait or heavy barrel all have benefited from being free floated. I usually agree with Chuck Hawks but in this case I do not.
 
Some of the Rugers from that era actually grouped worse when free floated. You can try and see.
 
This is indeed an interesting topic for the M77. First, I must admit that I agree with the notion that given my preference, all of my bolt action rifles would be free floated.

At this time I have four M77's. I have never seen the need to pull my old Model 77 270 (it shoots well as is) or the featherweight 223 from the stock. However, I have been tempted to work over the 223 when I get some time for reasons I will get to in a bit. I have a new, barely shot 6.5 Creedmoor with a 26" barrel, and I have not been impressed by its accuracy.

My M77 Mk 2 Frontier 308 in a laminate stock is another matter. This rifle with the original bedding would shoot just fine (~ 1 MOA) from the bench with sandbags. However, its performance in the field was another matter. After working with both scout and conventional scopes and rings, I finally got around to examining the bedding. The barrel was only bedded against the end 2 inches of the fore end with A LOT of pressure (more than just 2 or 3 pounds). Under field conditions, any asymmetric pressure on the fore end (such as using a sling) would shift the point of impact over 12 inches (to the left since I am right handed).

The laminate stock is hard, and it took about an hour with a bedding scraper and a dowel wrapped in sandpaper to float the barrel fully. While I have not extensively tested the accuracy on the range, I did successfully make a neck shot (about a 3 inch diameter target area) on a white tail at 150 yards in early November. More importantly, I called the shot (It was either the neck or a big mess during field dressing--i really dislike it when the deer only give you a frontal shot while standing behind a scrub mesquite bush. I had to wait until it turned its head just right).

Now about the M77 Featherweight. At the time I bought the 223, my brother bought a matching 257 Roberts that was promptly claimed by his wife. While she has harvested a number of deer with it, the accuracy has only been so-so with 2.5 to 3 MOA being the norm. Late in the summer, he pulled the rifle out of the stock a floated the barrel. There were two major results.

1) The point of impact at 100 yards shifted down 6 inches.
2) The average group sized decreased to less than 1 MOA.

This makes me tempted to revisit my 223 since I have always found that particular rifle to be difficult to shoot. Maybe it is not all me.

I am also beginning to wonder about the 6.5 Creedmoor (the only M77 I have in a synthetic stock). It probably won't hurt its accuracy.
 
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dranrab said:
What would be the goal of floating that barrel?
Click to expand...
Making sure it doesn't sink? :neener:

When a barrel expands, it expands ever so slightly. If it isn't free-floated, the theory is that the pressure on the barrel changes wherever it contacts the stock as it expands, changing point of impact on subsequent shots. It also changes the barrel harmonics and can affect where the muzzle is pointing (at a micro-level) when the bullet leaves the muzzle. A free floated barrel is (theoretically) free of these issues. On the other side, thinner barrels are said to benefit from some slight upward pressure at the tip of the forend to dampen the barrel on the first shot. That's the Reader's Digest condensed version and overly simplified.

I have one rifle (1903 with a 21" barrel) that shoots well with about 4 lbs of pressure at the forend tip on the barrel. It has a small sliver of epoxy between the forend and barrel that was set with 4 lbs hanging off the front sling swivel. Most of my other rifles shoot better free-floated. There are a couple of them that I haven't shot enough to tell.

Matt
 
The MK II was not free floated. Ruger believed in the pressure point at the tip of the forend. I free floated and glass bed my boat paddle MK II 223. Groups shrank by almost half. My advise would be to leave it original if you have the rifle as an investment, but if you want to shoot prairie dogs and want less than .75 moa accuracy, glass bed or pillar bed the stock and float the barrel. You can have this done by a gunsmith. One option might be Gander Mountain for the pillars. I have also bed a ruger synthetic with JB weld, that worked well but I suggest a good release agent.
 
The rifle in question is not a collector piece.

Buy an aftermarket stock if you wish to keep the factory stuff as is.

Shoot it first and if it sucks after a few reloading attempts/experimentation, float it.
If that makes it worse, add some material to bring back the pressure point.

Simple stuff.

The screws on the forearm hold the grip inserts. There is no lug underneath and I doubt they compress the stock against the bbl.

Some folks ditch the plastic/rubber inserts and go with wood. The canoe paddle stocks are hit or miss as far as folks liking the looks.

Bashing them around when hunting, synthetics earn their keep. Also, they don't swell when wet.

Folks never having taken stocks off their rifles? That's a great way to screw stuff up. Either no oil to the hidden areas of the barrel, or stocks not sealed correctly at the factory being prone to swell/warp when wet.

I pop every freakin wood stock off and check for sealing. Simple to fix it if it's not. Also..........torque isn't super exact, you'll want action screws snug, not cranked.

And you'll want recoil lugs bearing.

On the old 77's (non MK2) the tang safety could give you fits, they weren't always inlet perfect, and the way the actions were held by that angled screw..........sometimes a little wood removal could get a rig to shoot way better.

Guy I know got a 77V soaked. He let it dry (so he thought) and when he put it back together (after proper oiling) he didn't like the mag spacer rattling, so he cranked the screws tight.

Gun was a 1" rig with WW white box factory 55gr (.22-250). Tang was bearing.
Clearanced that, took a little off the mag spacer to let it not bind (since wood had been compressed/taken set). Then a thin cardboard shim just ahead of barrel/receiver junction............gun was .50" @ 100...............with same lot of ammo he got 1.0" before it got wet..........once wet it went 1.5"

I do understand how this stuff might be a bit spooky for some folks.
Maybe it's out of their comfort zone or research areas.

More folks would be better off if they were of such reservation.

Too many clowns own screwdrivers and or Dremel tools.
 
I was told by one of our local smiths that if he bedded and free floated my vanguard sporter (wood stock).223, it would reduce the groups. It was already shooting .5 MOA but I thought a $50 investment to get that even tighter was worth it. The gun shot like crap after. I was fit to be tied. Finally I shoved some card board from an ammo package under the barrel and after re-zeroing all was weller. I glassed in a pressure point and it shoots 10 shot groups under .5. When I was working up loads form my wife's Savage 10 in .223 I was having one heck of a go with it. On about the 4th or 5th range trip with test loads I thought about the cardboard trick. That gun came free floated. I shoved some package material in her and sheesh. That gun shoots better than my vanguard with many different loads. I have a friend with an older 700 heavy barrel in 22-250 that roamed all over the target. He let me pillar and glass bed it and now he shoots all he wants and it never gets outside .5 or so. I think it really can depend on the gun sometimes not just the barrel or stock and I am a tinkerer so it's fun for me to experiment. BTW my 7mm-08 savage likes to float.
 
Some need it and some don't.

I had a Bi-centennial 77 in 270 that was not floated that would shoot cloverleafs all day. Then about 15-16 years later decided that it didn't want to do it anymore. The stock must have warped and possibly the barrel was getting shot out. Anyway, I floated the barrel and glassed the action and it tightened groups from about 2 1/2" to 1 1/2". That was as good as it ever got. I had a friend who thought that a barrel "HAD" to be floated to shoot. He took a Rem 700 30-06 that would shoot sub-MOA and floated the barrel. Groups went to 1 1/2" to 2".

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
 
The rifle in question has the boat paddle stock, and commands a premium over standard hawkeyes and even other M77 mkII rifles. The fact is there are a group of buyers who are actively seeking these rifles, and if kept in original condition, they will appreciate. Even more sought after are the rare boat paddle rifles with blued metal
 
"The rifle in question has the boat paddle stock, and commands a premium over standard hawkeyes and even other M77 mkII rifles. The fact is there are a group of buyers who are actively seeking these rifles, and if kept in original condition, they will appreciate."

I'm seeing a few crazy prices on GB for these boat paddle M77s. I had no idea when I bought it last weekend. I wasn't expecting to get one of these at all.
 
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Have you fired the gun yet? Does it shoot well? I would do some experimentation before I worried about free floating or bedding. As far as the canoe paddle stock commanding a premium? Some Rugers are collectible and I lay claim to a bit of that niche but aside from some very rare examples I think the values are quite overstated.
Ruger made their name producing large quantities of rugged, durable, affordable guns so I'd compare collecting them to collecting state commemorative quarters as to value.
 
I always thought that the "boat-paddle stock" was ugly...

Shoot it before you mess with it, it might be a good shooter as-is. My M77 MkII shot well right out of the box. I have a wood stock though, don't know it that makes much difference...
 
Matt, I understand what floating does, but wondered why the OP wanted that particular barrel floated as it seemed he hadn't even shot it yet.
 
After you have shot it take it out of stock , cut about 4squares of paper for front & fear tang , cut a hole through the two stacks of paper for stock screws . Use these shims to lift your barrel above the pressure point in for end. Walay free floated without damaging stock test fire ,if accuracy is improved you can safely free float barrel by removing the pressure point from stock . if accuracy went south remove shims & you are back at square one with damage to stock. I always test float a barrel before sugessting stock work . it works well sometimes it requires more or less shimnsto he a result. ( just for testing not permanant solution
 
I have had a couple of M77's. They both had what I would call a pencil profile barrel meaning they really tapered down to a very thin profile.

I used the optimum charge weight method and figured out rounds for them that made them incredibly accurate. No bedding or floating required. One was a 30 06 and the other was a .308

All that free floating does is lets the barrel "ring" freely when you fire a round. As mentioned above a heavy barrel will have less whip. That pencil barrel will probably really whip a lot if you free floated it. If you have a point on the stock touching the barrel it will affect the barrel harmonics but it is still easy to dial in an accurate round. If you go the other route and fully bed the barrel you need a seriously rigid stock and then what you are really doing is leaving the last part of the barrel free and this in turn should reduce barrel whip when you shoot it.

If you want great accuracy just try working up a load that works for your rifle.
 
Yeah, Ruger Collectors can be a bit quirky.
But it's a boat paddle 77.

Paperwork, box, and condition all add up on the collector stuff.

Wouldn't put it in the same catagory as a factory checkered fingergroove .44 auto or pre prefix #1 in lesser chambering NIB.

I could be wrong, but it to me is just a solid hunting rifle that should be enjoyed.
Slap it in a Boyds laminate or B&C synthetic and keep the canoe paddle in good shape/factory form.

Hell, I shoot squirrels with a factory checkered fingergroove 10/22. Fully intend to pop another deer with a minty non checkered fingergroove .44.

The more I pay for stuff, the more I shoot it.

Life is short. Enjoy the heck out of it.
 
If the receiver is correctly epoxy bedded, free floating barrels will shoot most accurate. If not, its free floating barrel may not shoot accurate.

Of course, a good test of accuracy is needed to prove it. Most tests are not statistically significant enough to prove anything.
 
thirty rounds for a decent bell curve (my opinion).

oh, i agree with bart b., taking the stress out of the receiver is the key to free-floating a barrel (hint: it's a lot more than just bedding compound).

murf
 
For those who want to know why I want to float the barrel when I haven't shot the rifle yet, I never said I wanted to float the barrel. I added the last sentence to post #1 saying that this is a discussion about free-floating and possibly why the M77 wasn't. It's been a good discussion, but most seem to think I'm trying to make changes without trying the gun first. I just wanted to start a discussion. A lot of today's rifles tout the fact that their barrels are free-floated and that makes them more accurate. But Chuck Hawks thinks it's done for economic reasons. Maybe he's right, maybe he's not. He sure knows more about the workings of a rifle than I do. That being said, I truly value the opinions of those on this board. I'm always impressed with the knowledge displayed in the discussions on here and I try to learn from them.

So I was just looking for a discussion about floating in general and maybe why the M77 Mk II wasn't. Right now I'm not planning to make any modifications to the rifle.
 
I have one of those all weather m77's that I will never sell. It is the most amazingly consistent hunting rifle I have ever owned. I would not dream of free floating the barrel or doing anything that might compromise this rifles fantastic accuracy

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This is not a fluke it shoots like this all the dang time.

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Why weren't they free floated? Simple really

The internet didn't exist then so we didn't know any better than a rifle barrel HAD to be free floated and broken in with some 100shot kabuki theater bbl break in regime. Back in the days when a rifle certainly could shoot "good enough"
 
I had a friend who'd purchased a Rem 700, used from a pawnshop, had its synthetic stock glued to the barrel hard all the way down. It was a complete hack job and was touched up with black sharpie to keep the gorilla glue from contrasting with the black stock.

The rifle was a stellar shooter with most factory ammo.
 
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