The trouble with patches

[Daizee]

Hello BP Wisepeople,

I messed with patches again this weekend.
My pillow ticking measures 0.16 heavily lubed.
The store-bought patches measure 0.16 soaked in some kind of oil.

Why will the store-bought patches go down the bore of my .54 while the pillow ticking patches won't even make it to the start of the rifling in my Hawken?

The weave appears to be different. There is no stretch in either of the "forward" or "crosswise" directions of the pillow ticking, but it's nice and stretchy across the diagonals.

I'd really love to use this stuff, or another bulk fabric, but without understanding the variables I'm not going to buy anything new.

Thanks,

-Daizee

 

[Mike OTDP]

Your ticking may not be the right fabric. Try pure cotton.

 

[Daizee]

Thanks, Mike.
I don't know what this fabric is, offhand. I'm sure it's written on the roll back at the store. Hm. I'll try to burn a square with a match and see if it melts or something.

BTW, clearly I meant my patches are 0.016, not 0.16. Sheesh, that would be a problem I bet...

"Daizee, try ONE patch, not TEN!"

-Daizee

 

[BHP FAN]

I like 100% cotton bedsheets.One cotton bedsheet will yield a life time suppy of patches.Try to find a nice thick almost new one,or just spring for a new one from KMart.New ones will run .010 -.015 old sheets will work,but run thinner,sometimes requiring double patching,and then you're back to busting ramrods.

 

[Hungry Seagull]

Not exactly certain of my position on patches for cleaning.

I have discovered bags of big cotton patches from Southern Bloomer Mfg Company out of Bristol TN to be very adequate. I go through a number of them when cleaning.

 

[Matt-J2]

I reckon he means patches for shooting.

 

[Smokin_Gun]

Daizee, it all depends on the bore of your rifle and the ball size and pillow tickin' or patches you choose...I think there are .530", .533", and .535" roundballs ...and .540 Minnie' ball(no patch) . The combo of .530 and .016" pillow tickin' gives ya a ,536" diameter and if you use a liquid patch lube like Mooses's milk or Hoppes, Thompson's you may get a better fit with the pillow tickin'.
What Rifle are you shootin'?

 

[arcticap]

Why will the store-bought patches go down the bore of my .54 while the pillow ticking patches won't even make it to the start of the rifling in my Hawken?

Here's one explanation that mad monk posted on ALR:

In looking at cloth you might want to consider something. You may have a piece of cloth that with light pressure on the micrometer shows .018". Then crank down a little more and you could be looking at .012". I call that the crush.
When I first looked at the .018" #40 cotton drill I was impressed. It would only crush down to .015" under pressure. This cloth has a high thread count and is very tightly woven. Originally made for pants pockets where extreme strength and abrasion resistance was called for. In fact it was once known as pocket drill.
Then you look at other fabrics and they might be .018 to .020 under little micrometer pressure and crush down to around .012" under pressure.

The pillow ticking must be getting crushed in order for it to appear to be .016 thick, and then it can't be crushed any further to allow it to fit into your bore. On the other hand the pre-cut patches meet an industry measurement standard and will usually have a uniform density and thread count.

 

[Smokin_Gun]

Well since I started shootin' BP Rifle a, 100 years ago I, and I still use a couple .50 cal rifles with a .490" cast ball, blue striped and washed .016" to .018" Pillow tickin'(from WalMart), and Moose's Milk for a LIQUID LUBE. Still works great in my Tennessee Poorboy and Mowery .50's.

 

[Guvnor]

Patches have been giving me grief lately also. I cant seem to find one that is the right thickness. .010's work but they seem way too loose when loading and my groups suck as a result. .015's shoot well but are extremely hard to load. I am using .490 roundballs in both cases.

Makes me want to give up on patch and ball altogether and start shooting minie's.

Any suggestions?

 

[mykeal]

Im not sure what your 'success' criteria is. What are you expecting from a piece of cloth? What do you mean by 'work' and 'work well'?

Maybe going to .495 rb/s with the 0.010 patch is 'the answer'.

 

[arcticap]

Makes me want to give up on patch and ball altogether and start shooting minie's.

Any suggestions?

mykeal had made a very good suggestion.
I usually use a mallet to start loads. A small hammer with rubber facing, a plastic hammer, wood, rawhide or rubber mallet can be used to gently tap the short starter to get the patched round ball started into the barrel. If a load is still tight to ram, I'll use the mallet for as long as the length of the short starter that I happen to be using which could be up to 1' long.
Many chunk gun competition shooters use bore size balls and thick teflon patching to obtain best long range accuracy which could require a lot of gentle hammering to start into the barrel and seat. But their barrels usually do have very deep rifling to make room for the patch material.
Others buy a coning tool to cone their muzzle to help make starting a PRB a more gradual squeezing in of the PRB and easier to accomplish with bare hands.
They say that the coning process doesn't affect accuracy, and the guide/tool costs $42.
If you're interested in the coning tool, here's contact info. for the person who makes a universal one and a thread all about it complete with pictures. He's a member of the American Long Rifles website:

http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=4330.0

email: [email protected]

Ed Hamberg
1008 Logan
Alton, Il 62002

Ed Hamberg's Barrel Coning Tutorial:

http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=4375.0

Here's another ALR member who makes a coning tool that's caliber specific:

http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=2177.0

Simple to use, this precision bronze tool requires no special skills. Very complete and clear instructions supplied. $42.00 for each caliber, shipping is free. E-mail me for additional information.


Joe Wood
The Firelock Shop
5311 Briar Street
Amarillo, TX 79109
e-mail: [email protected]
(806) 352-3032

 

[Guvnor]

By "works well" I meant I get good groups using them. I suppose the .015's give me a good gas seal and I get much better accuracy. But they are so hard to load it gets really tiring after a few shots. Using the .010's I can start it down the muzzle with my thumb, and load it using only one hand on the ramrod...but id be lucky to get 5 shots on a paper plate at 50 yards.

I hadn't thought about using a larger ball with the .010, will give it a try. Thanks for the suggestion.

I will check out those links too, thanks.

 

[arcticap]

It can also help to have a thicker ramrod that has a handle or a way to grip it better to increase ramming leverage:

Handles:

Rubber Ramrod Grip:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=5604997&postcount=11

 

[mykeal]

Ok, based on your results using the tighter combination is justified (that isn't always the case). So let's try a couple of ideas to make that easier.

First, what are you using for patch lube? The universal spit lube is highly recommended as a wet lube; a dried mixture of a mineral oil based solvent (machine cutting oil, Ballistol, etc.) and water is also excellent. Mix the oil and water at 1:7, soak the patches and then let them dry out. Moose milk is another solution, very similar to the above; the patches can be slightly wet or dry.

Do you clean between shots? Swabbing with a wet patch soaked in a bp solvent or even water, followed by a dry patch once then turned over and used again will work well.

Finally, use a range rod to load the ball. Use a short starter or mallet to get it into the bore, then use a long, solid brass or steel range rod (October Country makes them) to finish. The rod is heavy and easier to grasp and push (credit to articap for reminding me of this).

 

[Macgille]

I use a .017" thick pillow ticking under a .490 ball. The bore dia of my rifle is .505" and the groove dia is .510" . So it compresses the patch .002" at the lands and leaves .003 in the grooves. I lube with bore butter before starting the ball with a starter. Then ram with the starter for 6", finishing with a ramrod made from a 7/16" dowel cut to 36". The longer ramrod with a brass jag is stronger and easier to handle when ramming a tight patch.

I have ordered a mold for .495" balls and will experiment with patch materials with it. I found some pillow ticking that measures .021 that had sizing in it so I washed it and ironed it to remove the sizing. I have found that accuracy is controlled by powder charge rather than patch thickness. Correct thickness is important so that the pressures in the bore can be stable. Once achieving the correct thickness then adjust the powder charge for accuracy. Best accuracy is generally with a load that is less than the maximum. Remember that the patch must engage the rifling to spin the ball. Too thin and the ball will not spin correctly, too tight and pressures can spike causing loss of accuracy.