The unsupported standing position

[PWC]

The other night, while watching Bastonge footage, I saw GIs shoot, not hurried, not from cover, standing unsupported and the M1 without a sling.

IIRC, most real WW2 combat footage, I see the rifles without slings. Before contact or expecting contact did the GI remove his sling?

My XM177 "Commando" (what'a dumb name!) always had the butt collapsed and carried it low across upper belly with a sling across my back, over my left shoulder to the front "swivel" with a 1/4 turn; I could control it with one hand. Granted, I never needed it at long range, but could if needed.

Any other position than standing is already supported and presupppses the shooter has time to sling up for even better support.

Competitively, I understand the "standing position" originated from military necessity, and the need to snap shoot unsupported while moving.

In shooting standing, or offhand, whichever you may call it, I like to use the hasty sling adjusted tight and I do better with it than without the support.

I don't hunt anymore, but do any of you hunters use standing sling support?

 

[troy fairweather]

Think the slings of old times were more of a nuisance, they seemed to be used for when on the move then from a fighting Poisson.

I like slings and know all the ways to use one, but I don't use them much for support. Meaning, I would pick a bear by tree, rock, even on the ground, whatever is near by. Middle of a field of probably use it after taking a nee if possible. I'm a big guy so my slings are always at near full length so that helps for a quick arm wrap.

been using Montana type slings lately and like them, the old butler creek I like but can be slippery.

 

[230RN]

I used to wander aimlessy over the Grassslands without purpose except to practice shooting at targets of opportunity (rocks, shrubbery, jackrabbits) at unknown ranges. I used various sling methods in this open country including muzzle down over my left shoulder, which allowed a fast use of the hasty sling.

I didn't like the muzzle-down idea if I were in the National Forests because of the chances of poking the muzzle into the dirt or (unlikely) getting a branchlet stuck in the muzzle while maneuvering around in this kind of brushy, rocky territory.

Even when I was doing rifle matches I never used the full old-fashioned (even then) military sling in the military way, but used the hasty sling in all positions. (Maybe that's why I was always in the middle of the scoring roster, no? )

I have seen images of modern matches where the slings were just hanging down and I cannot fathom how accurate shooting could be done with the sling hanging down, swinging, and "push-around-able" by vagrant breezes. But perhaps these were just "photo-op" pictures and did not reflect reality.

I have never used a single point sling.

I should mention that my competitive shooting was all in the late 1970s with an accurized .30-06 M1 borrowed from the Coors gun club. I and it was accurate enough to get a number of 10 inch Vs ( now "Xs") at 1000 yards.

 

[D.B. Cooper]

I don't hunt anymore, but do any of you hunters use standing sling support?

Nope.

I'm a high power shooter. I use a 1907 Military sling on my hunting rifle. (All my rifles, in fact.) I've never shot an animal from the standing, off-hand position-with or without a sling. My most oft-used position for taking game is the sitting position with the sling in the traditional high-power/300 yard rapid fire form. I've taken one caribou from the prone with the sling.

In my view, the standing position, with or without a sling is too imprecise for any certainty of an ethical hit unless it is very close range-sub 100 yards. Anytime I've taken an animal, it was after low-crawling, or running, to a shooting position, and my heart rate has been up all but one or two times. To prove my point, next time you're at the range, run to the 100 yrd target and back as fast as you can without stopping and then immediately grab your rifle and fire at a 10" paper plate. Only your first shot counts.

Use the sling. Shoot from the ground.

 

[toivo]

Just a wild-ass guess here because I've never been in combat, but couldn't there be rifle-firing in combat that doesn't require precision, like covering or suppressive fire? Maybe that's what you were seeing in that footage.

 

[Tallinar]

My grandfather carried a BAR in Europe. I remember asking him one time something about accuracy or marksmanship in combat — I don’t recall exactly what I asked.

He replied something to the effect that when shooting started, it all came down to which side could throw more bullets at the other.

For the most part, I think you’ll find that in the heat of combat, sling shooting went out the window.

 

[jmorris]

I don't hunt anymore, but do any of you hunters use standing sling support?

Yes.

Not so much in 3 gun though and never in combat. Never been in combat though, so there’s that…

 

[Chuck R.]

I don't hunt anymore, but do any of you hunters use standing sling support?

Yes, but I've gone to all quick adjust slings to make it work. I started getting into slings about the same time I started taking defensive carbine classes. For that type of use, it's pretty much strictly for carrying. Your sling is essential when doing transitions to sidearms or just using your hands. I've never seen anybody in a class "sling up" for shooting. On my carbines I use 2Pt quick adjust slings.

Once I saw the usefulness there, I transitioned to my hunting rigs. The quick adjust slings let me transition from over shoulder to across back quickly when doing things with my hands. They also allow me to get "slung up" when shooting standing, kneeling and sitting, when a rest isn't available. I put the same sling on my .22LR "trainer" for practicing.

Usefulness? Honestly I don't know because I've yet to make a shot on a game animal while "slung up". When I've had time to get into a sling, I've had the time to get onto a field expedient rest.

The only guys I've seen with slings at 3Gun matches are newbies, and usually the sling is gone either during the match, or at the next match. Most if not all of the long-guns are sling-less. No one slings up as you'll waste time getting in and out of the sling due to the transitions.

 

[trackskippy]

Most of my rifle shooting these days is done offhand, without a sling, and in a couple of different ways. Slow fire type shooting and reactive type shooting. If not offhand, then cross legged sitting. I think those two are the most practical to keep up with for any kind of realistic shooting.

Offhand is the one position that's usually the weakest/hardest for most, and most likely to be used in a hurry. And as with anything else shooting wise, you need to keep your muscle tone/memory up, and keep them as well honed as you can. Lots od dry fire helps a lot there too.

In the past, shot high power rifle, mostly military type rifles, competitively for a number of years. Offhand, slings were not permitted. For the other positions, the 1907 or web type slings (some also use a cuff type set up) were set up as a shooting sling, using a loop, and not used as a hasty sling.

For hunting, unless it was a close-range jump shot while walking, I most likely wouldnt try and shoot offhand.

If you want to shoot with a sling offhand, you really need the sling set up as a traditional carry sling (mounted on swivels on the bottom of the rifle) and a hasty sling will work pretty well. Side mounted slings dont work as a shooting sling. At least I see no benefit there using them that way. The real benefit there with those types of slings is, they keep the gun handy/ready, and quickly mounted. With them, being comfortable and capable shooting offhand without the sling, is a big plus.

If you want a great sling for slinging up quickly and is a solid shooting sling, then check out the Ching Slings, or a similar set up. There really is nothing faster there. Just poke your arm through the loop and your slung up. I think for a hunting sling, they are about the best way to go.

Regardless of whether or not you use one, you really do need to practice shooting offhand regularly, honing that skill and and keeping your fitness level up to be able to do it well.

 

[CapnMac]

By 1945, the US had near 14 million men (out of a 140 million US population) in uniform spread around the Globe.
USN had near 3 million; another million in USCG & USMC, and the rest were Army & NG, about a third of the Army's total in AAF.

With any large grouping of people you will get a large number of ways of doing things. Infantry in trucks did not need to carry packs, and were unlikely to need to sling their rifles while marching. Paratroops did not want slings on as they were already covered in straps and cords and the like, and had enough entanglement issues. So, the Unit SOPs all varied. There was no Regulation that a sling was to be used as a rule.

To keep things complicated, around 1943, the Model of 1907 leather sling was replaced in inventory with the "M36" canvas sling, to reduce need for leather, and in recognition of the sling as a carrying strap.

And, there's going to be some variety in photos as the Forward Edge of Battle is not necessarily a place where one wants to be armed with only a camera. And FEB shooting is going to be largely from cover, which is not very photogenic (not being seen being a key part of "cover"). So, if you are an Army Photographer, you might be in the second, or third line of Advance. So, any photos of shooting are going to be in surprise, snap, or pop-up situations.

Last time I used a sling was at an Appleseed shoot 3-4 years ago.

 

[Hugger-4641]

I don't hunt anymore, but do any of you hunters use standing sling support?

Yes, I killed a doe last year, standing with sling wrapped, at about 60yds .
I was practicing the other day with my .308 hitting 6" steel slung up. Anything over 100yds I'm gonna find some support or get prone on a rest.

 

[brewer12345]

I don't have slings on my muzzleloaders and the last 3 round ball deer were unsupported shots of 50 to 70 yards. Key to making those shots was practice and the ability to stand perfectly still downwind of a deer until I could carefully line up the shot. 54 and 58 caliber projectiles also provide a margin of error. I tend to buck fever, so I know I have to patiently wait until I am calm and on target before shooting.

 

[.38 Special]

Yes, I use traditional military-type slings and three point "Ching" slings and have shot game with both. I prefer the Ching sling, but it doesn't quite look right on the traditional rifles I prefer.

The only thing I can offer re. combat is a passage in Cooper's Art of the Rifle wherein he describes American Marines shooting at swimming Japanese soldiers, and notes that they were shooting from sitting, with tight slings. Of course, shooting fleeing soldiers in the water requires more accuracy than speed, but there you go.

 

[Varminterror]

do any of you hunters use standing sling support?

For over 30 years of hunting, I have exceptionally rarely ever taken standing, unsupported shots - or even sling supported. I don’t shoot at running game, and I tend to utilize field-expedient solutions which allow me to take SUPPORTED shots effectively as I could take unsupported shots. I don’t snap shoot at running big game.

We had a new member here a few years ago who talked a lot of trash and a lot of lies, and addressing a challenge he proffered, I tested my “coming off of the couch, cold” standing ability after rarely practicing such for several years. At 200 yards, I was able to keep all shots on a 10” target from an offhand standing position - from a rifle which would print smaller than a half inch at that distance on a bipod and rear bag. Not small, but certainly small enough to hit the vital zone on deer, and at 200yrds, AND, given a little practice, I’d expect to cut that group considerably, likely almost in half. I repeated the same at 150yrds with my 22LR as well.

Despite knowing I possess the ability, I simply don’t have interest in taking compromised shots on game. I’ve punctured the heart - fist sized, roughly 4-5”, - of every deer I have taken in the last decade. Not by accident or coincident - but rather because I don’t take shots any more which wouldn’t allow me to (effectively) guarantee sufficient precision.

 

[D.B. Cooper]

He replied something to the effect that when shooting started, it all came down to which side could throw more bullets at the other.

I've heard that from guys who served in Korea, Vietnam, and Afghanistan. There must be something to it. (I think it's one of the main arguments against the Army phasing out the M16/5.56 in favor of the new "Spear whatever" in "6 point whatever" caliber-the guys will either be carrying less ammo, or heavier packs.

 

[D.B. Cooper]

Yes.

Not so much in 3 gun though and never in combat. Never been in combat though, so there’s that…

In any run n gun I've done, slings were strictly forbidden for safety reasons.

 

[Hugger-4641]

Shooting unsupported is as much or more of a mental challenge as physical. No one can stand offhand and hold dead steady zero on a distance target for long. So, you have to develop a technique that works for you (lots of practice).
If using a sling, then I wrap the sling and pull in tight.
If not using a sling, I choke up on the forearm and drop my elbow down against my ribs for supporr. Of course, you still have your breathing, heartbeat, and trigger pull to deal with. Learning how to control
and time all this takes practice, lots of it.
It also helps to have a good mentor. My grandad taught me to shoot at a young age, but my real mentor for offhand shooting was an employee who was retired USMC gunsmith and champion marksman. He passed before I learned all I wanted to from him, but in the short time he was with me, he taught me a lot.

 

[FL-NC]

I don't "snap in" with a leather sling, or anything like that. My slings are built for comfort and just a way to carry a rifle, esp. if my hands are full. I have practiced firing standing offhand, but I use my sling by grabbing a handful of it right at the front swivel and pulling back, bracing the rifle into my shoulder- so in this case I'm using it more like a forward grip on a M4. It is a form of "improvised support and stability". I have used this method exactly 1 time to shoot a deer at about 50 yards that I encountered moving to where I was going to set up for the afternoon- at the time, I had a climber deer stand disassembled on my back.

 

[herrwalther]

When it comes to combat shooting, the sling is usually just to hold the weapon. I don't know of anyone that used a sling to stabilize their weapon for a long range, standing unsupported shot at a combatant. But then again that is taught more in the USMC than Army. The way my sling was setup was so I could transition to my pistol (I had one most of my enlistment) or free both hands for something else by putting the weapon to my side or back pretty quickly and retrieving it the same. In WWII advanced materials, swivels, and mounts were not even thought of yet. And a simple cotton sling between two fixed points hindered more than it helped in the field.

 

[Bfh_auto]

The other night, while watching Bastonge footage, I saw GIs shoot, not hurried, not from cover, standing unsupported and the M1 without a sling.

IIRC, most real WW2 combat footage, I see the rifles without slings. Before contact or expecting contact did the GI remove his sling?

My XM177 "Commando" (what'a dumb name!) always had the butt collapsed and carried it low across upper belly with a sling across my back, over my left shoulder to the front "swivel" with a 1/4 turn; I could control it with one hand. Granted, I never needed it at long range, but could if needed.

Any other position than standing is already supported and presupppses the shooter has time to sling up for even better support.

Competitively, I understand the "standing position" originated from military necessity, and the need to snap shoot unsupported while moving.

In shooting standing, or offhand, whichever you may call it, I like to use the hasty sling adjusted tight and I do better with it than without the support.

I don't hunt anymore, but do any of you hunters use standing sling support?

I use the same motto of why run if you can walk, why walk if you can ride.
Insert correct verbiage.
Basically I use any possible advantage. I don't shoot without a sling if I have one. My deer rifles all have sounds except my R92 and it's a brush gun.

 

[Random 8]

I have never shot a game animal "slung up" as one would sitting or prone in a HIgh Power match.

In my part of the world, prone is generally not an option as the only places open enough to need a prone/slung position usually feature knee high or taller grass. I have taken game from sitting, kneeling, chair sitting and standing, all above with the aid of a hasty sling and/or improvised rest. My hunting rifles feature M1907 leather or M1 style WEB slings. I will be switching to the WEB sling once my present sling is retired. I prefer it for field use. I still prefer the M1907 for match use. It is a fine sling for target shooters, IMHO near useless for field use at least in my part of the country. In more open areas with varied terrain where prone shooting is a more likely option, I could absolutely see the utility. I find prone/wrapsling to be more stable than a bipod. I have also invented a position I refer to as "chair prone." This involves a folding lawn chair, my left leg crossed over my right knee and body roughly 90 degrees to target. Hasty sling wrapped tightly, left elbow in the crook of left knee, right elbow in the right chair arm beer holder. I find this position remarkably stable, rivaling sling prone or front sandbag from a sitting bench.

Now on to the original topic. Unsupported, no sling shooting. I hunt in snap shot country. The old magazine narrative of a buck ghosting through the timber while you snap your trusty rifle to your shoulder, aim, and fire through a gap in the trees before he gets away is "a thing" here still. While walking, stalking, or sitting a chair or tree stump in the deep woods, I try to always have my sling in a loose hasty wrap. It tightens naturally as the rifle is brought to bear (with practice). I find it helps a little bit in basic marksmanship. I find it helps immensely while tracking and firing at a moving target, or recovering from recoil for a rapid follow up shot. As for combat use, I cannot speak to that other than in my time in Bos/Herz in an irregular contractor unit. We carried mostly HK style arms, with HK style slings. They were useful for carry or CQB deployment, but of little use as a marksmanship age. I outfitted my G3 with a Dragunov variant leather sling that with the addition of a generic buckle, functioned like an M1 WEB sling. The East Germans found this comical until we fired on the rifle range. Then some wanted one of their own.

 

[adcoch1]

I hunt some thick stuff out here on Washington's coast, and have shot most of my deer unsupported standing, weather rifle or handgun. If there is more than a chance of getting a shot before the deer disappeared I'd use an improvised rest, or sling up if my rifle has one on it at the time. But slings catch on everything out here in thick brush or rough clear-cuts, so I use them hiking in then remove them. Longest shot I've taken though is 220 yards, most are right around 100 yards. I've practiced offhand shooting a lot, and I like it. I'll use a rest though if there is one to be had, cause even though I've hit pretty small targets out to 300 unsupported, a deer is not something I want to miss my shot on.

 

[d2wing]

I was trained to use a sling in the Army. In Nam my M-16 had a sling but I never used it. They are an aid in offhand shooting but not practical to use in combat. You can't have your hand/arm tangled up in a sling. Also, you don't have time for aimed shots very often in a gun fight even if you can see your enemy. I have heard it said that the side that is loudest wins. Not always true of course.
Although I was trained to be about to hit a moving target offhand with the quick kill technique, I don't use it hunting. I prefer supported well placed aimed shots but never use the sling. The only standing unsupported shots I have taken have been at close range. About 50 yards at most usually and rarely.

 

[Peakbagger46]

The other night, while watching Bastonge footage, I saw GIs shoot, not hurried, not from cover, standing unsupported and the M1 without a sling.

IIRC, most real WW2 combat footage, I see the rifles without slings. Before contact or expecting contact did the GI remove his sling?

My XM177 "Commando" (what'a dumb name!) always had the butt collapsed and carried it low across upper belly with a sling across my back, over my left shoulder to the front "swivel" with a 1/4 turn; I could control it with one hand. Granted, I never needed it at long range, but could if needed.

Any other position than standing is already supported and presupppses the shooter has time to sling up for even better support.

Competitively, I understand the "standing position" originated from military necessity, and the need to snap shoot unsupported while moving.

In shooting standing, or offhand, whichever you may call it, I like to use the hasty sling adjusted tight and I do better with it than without the support.

I don't hunt anymore, but do any of you hunters use standing sling support?

I do use standing sling support while hunting and also prefer a good tree to rest on for added support.

I don’t miss but I’ve been known to get really close before making meat . Kneeling is probably my favorite and tied with standing supported in terms of actual field use.

 

[Thomasss]

I have found that sometimes an unsupported shot is all one has as an option so how does one succeed. The problem is you only have a second or so to hold the rifle steady before your tense muscles begin to fail and the rifle starts to wobble in your hands.
My answer is to intentionally move the rifle in a particular direction which reduces the muscle tension. I refer to this as "target drifting". The easiest method is shooting at a still target. I find, especially at longer distances, I will determine the amount of hold over required and them start lowering my cross hairs from 5 ft above the target to the POI while slowly tightening up and squeezing the trigger. As I cross my intended POI, the gun goes off. One need to practice this technique, but I found it works and give the shooter extra time to zero in on the target and make the shot count. Horizontal target drifting can also be done, but I find it a lot more complicated. Remember "aim small, miss small. " Many hunters think when the time comes to shoot it's going to be as easy as sighting in on a bench...and it rarely is that easy.