the USDA needs what?

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They chase down grow ops and meth labs on public land. There are some pretty nasty characters out there, particularly down by the border.
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So what they're asking for is the best tool for a grow raid? It seems a bit under gunned for a woodland setting especially if the BG has an AK.
 
Sam Cade said:
They are real cops. Their job is to enforce the laws on federal lands.
That is why they call them Forestry Service Law Enforcement Officers.
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Of course; my quip was more about the need for such an arm of the FS to conduct planned raids in lieu of what we used to call the "proper authorities" before every agency made themselves "the men in charge with the guns." Obviously agents would have need for the same self-defense as any citizen, were they limited to defensive tactics in their duties (and leaving offensive tactics to specialized* para/military units). The machine guns in the station locker have nothing to do with agents' self defense needs.

*specialized within the government, not within the 'tactical discipline.' Part of the reason raids and military tactics have so prevailed is because A) they work, regardless of justification, and B) they are a lot easier to arrange when there's a SWAT tank on every back lot and a locker full of machine guns and tear gas. If the FS or any other Bureau had to seek collaboration with the local LEOs or Natl. Guard for every grow-bust, they'd probably adjust their tactics to be less confrontational and nail the scoundrels when they go into town to get gas (well away from their illegal arsenals of full-auto whatevers that supposedly justify no-knock raids at midnight)

TCB
 
barnbwt said:
they'd probably adjust their tactics to be less confrontational and nail the scoundrels when they go into town to get gas (well away from their illegal arsenals of full-auto whatevers that supposedly justify no-knock raids at midnight)
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You mean like BATFE had every opportunity to do in Waco but declined in favor of an armed raid?
 
JRH6856 said:
You mean like BATFE had every opportunity to do in Waco but declined in favor of an armed raid?
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Yes, actually. Had the ATF not had their own tanks, gun, and goons (though I guess they did have to source horse-trailers), and been forced to get the local "po-dunk townies" to go along with their grand important schemes at their expense, and their liability...you bet your bippy there'd have been some more pushback and an incentive to de-escalate the situation. The locals actually knew who the Davidians were (weirdos with a lot of legal/personal beefs among the group they split from), while the ATF only knew what thrice-removed investigative reports by career driven bureaucrats said (drug-dealing, machine-gun wielding, slave-holding anarchists). The ATF's having its own fighting forces was the factor driving them to take charge in these situations (Ruby Ridge is yet another among countless examples) and escalate/over-react due to their own presence.

Believe it or not, this is the wisdom behind not maintaining a standing army at home in peace time. They will be used where their tactics and presence are not needed or appropriate, because their higher authority trumps that of the proper authorities responsible to the local populace for their enforcement practices. The US government would never dare to send soldiers from Ft. Hood in full gear and Bradley's to help the local cops bust a local kingpin --but that's exactly what the ATF does daily (among like a dozen other bureaus at this point)

Baaaaack on topic... (maybe)
Anyone have any theories on what gun they'll go for (because you know this contract won't fall through now :D)? I'm still thinking MPX, but I also heard UMP. Are the Heckler & Koch brothers still making MP5s? That could be a very practical option. Officers with MP7's would be pretty cool, though, since I might actually get to see one at some point that way :D. Even I would say a P90's fifty rounds would be a bit excessive for peace officers, if only as a cost consideration (what's that, like 120$ for a mag-full of SS190?)

TCB
 
Exactly; why wouldn't they? Especially with the whole asset forfeiture scam thing goin' round (which is the reason they raid the dangerous criminal premises in the first place in a good portion of these deals)

http://www.justice.gov/jmd/afp/05participants/index.htm
Hey, my hunch was right; even USDA is in on the scam;
"Forfeiture is integrated as an important law enforcement tool in combating criminal activity affecting USDA programs."

How else would they pay for SMGs, what with sequestration and everything?;)

TCB
 
LOL, that story has a front-loaded ad for Bay Area real-estate! :D Whoops! :eek:

Perfect place to put down stakes, alright, just "look out" for those violent growers :p

I also love the little 'arsenal' (not their word, thankfully) they show for one of the grow sights; a wood-stocked pump shotgun and what looked in passing like a little scoped bolt action (243 or 22LR or something). Such "violent" implements (their activity) that would be totally in keeping with any other agricultural/rural occupation. Not defending the scum bags activities, just saying I can't argue they don't have the same need for pest removal as other farmers (just so long as the pests being removed aren't people, or rather, the wrong people, since even growers have violent home invasions like everyone else).

That old saw about Capone's liquor, guns, money, and women all being things that would be legal in a free & just society...;)

TCB
 
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Yogi and Booboo are at it again. Anyone seen my picanik basket?

P.S. What do you think they're going to do with 300,000 combat troops when they come home?
How's the job market in your city? Just askin'.
 
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I am just not on board with it. There are far too many armed Feral agencies now. The DOE doesn't need swat weapons neither does the BOLM, DOF, USDA or the EPA . As a matter of fact there are too many of the alphabet soup agencies as it is.

Whatever they need done it can be done by contacting the locals. The police depts. have swat and they are trained. They need to do a raid then get the sheriffs dept involved. I am just plain worn out on this BS. Now we have the DHS running around like they are the Gestapo.

Whoever the politician is in Utah pushing to disarm these agencies is on the right track!
 
Was it the USDA that did the raid on the dairy farm in CA with guns drawn and long guns pointed at everyone for selling raw milk at the farmers market?
 
rs7: There appears to be little (if any) appetite among this administration to create new billets/slots for many of those troops in the Border Patrol.

Let's imagine the future possibilities knowing that some Hispanic drug smugglers arrested in or near tunnels on the southern border were found with tattoos in Farsi, the language of Iran, and many of their Hezbollah proxies.

It might be nice to have some of our combat veterans well-armed on that border. I'll donate some 7.62x39 or M2 Ball ammo with which a few of them can practice.
 
barnbwt said:
I'm still thinking MPX, but I also heard UMP. Are the Heckler & Koch brothers still making MP5s? That could be a very practical option.
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Actually, the UMP replaced the MP5 in the H&K lineup.
 
Override, I said nothing about border control, unless Jellystone counts.
 
But what about the Department of Agriculture, the Railroad Retirement Board, the Tennessee Valley Authority, the Office of Personnel Management, the Consumer Product Safety Commission, and the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service? All of these have their own SWAT units and are part of a worrying trend towards the militarization of federal agencies — not to mention local police forces."
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I can't speak for all of these, but TVA administers a number of electric generation plants in the southeast. Not all of them are hydro plants on TVA lakes...they also run a number of nuclear fission facilities. Personally, I want them to have more than a sacrificial tripwire force keeping the nutbags away from the control rods.

I'm having a little more trouble understanding the need for the Railroad Retirement Board. Do they pay in cash and need security for the stagecoach? ":)
 
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Elkins45 said:
I can't speak for all of these, but TVA administers a number of electric generation plants in the southeast. Not all of them are hydro plants on TVA lakes...they also run a number of nuclear fission facilities. Personally, I want them to have more than a sacrificial tripwire force keeping the nutbags away from the control rods.

I'm having a little more trouble understanding the need for the Railroad Retirement Board. Do they pay in cash and need security for the stagecoach? ":)
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While I don't like the idea of arming every last government agency I absolutly do want TVA nuclear facilities to have good armament!!! I live not far from Brown's ferry where there is a nuclear plant. Yes, it should have more than a "tripwire" force.
 
"The DOE doesn't need swat weapons "


No, they just manufacture and store our nuclear weapons.

Who would want to guard *those*? Nobody would ever want to steal them... :rolleyes:


Willie

.
 
Bruno2 said:
Whatever they need done it can be done by contacting the locals. The police depts. have swat and they are trained. They need to do a raid then get the sheriffs dept involved. I am just plain worn out on this BS. Now we have the DHS running around like they are the Gestapo.
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This makes very little sense as many large areas of public land requiring monitoring and enforcement have only small towns in and around them.

So my small town's local LE ( no swat) is supposed to provide monitoring and enforcement for crimes committed in the hundreds of square miles of public forest surrounding us? There is no way our city budget could accommodate what that would require, and there is no way you could bleed this town dry for the city expenditures required to fund your proposal. You are talking about quadroupling LE hiring, and purchasing of an entire fleet of off road vehicles, and all the infrastructure to support.

The local police are trained....trained for what? Trained to be local police officers, not natural resources enforcement, and not for raids into timbered areas.
Sheesh...how much do you want to pile on these guys?

This is just not a realistic expectation.
 
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Look what was happening in NV? where rancher grazed cattle on public lands w/o paying associated fees. Many people including those associated with state militias "threw him a line". United States is now full of many very angry people. Obviously federal agencies are fearing the worst is yet to come.
 
And the Consumer Product Safety Commission needs a SWAT type force for what again??? I know it was rumored that Mattell made M16's, but really now. :scrutiny:
 
"This makes very little sense as many large areas of public land requiring monitoring and enforcement have only small towns in and around them.

So my small town's local LE ( no swat) is supposed to provide monitoring and enforcement for crimes committed in the hundreds of square miles of public forest surrounding us?"

We have rangers, which typically are there for monitoring large or rural areas while enforcing ordinary policies, police for responding to typical crimes and enforcing ordinary laws, precinct-coordination for larger or more serious threats, Natl Guardsmen for responding to large scale situations, and military for destroying nation-level threats with extreme prejudice. If the situation is too big for the cops to handle, they need to call in reinforcements (which is especially reasonable for something planned in advance like a raid). That's not a reason for the local cops (or regulating bureau agents) to employ military tactics or equipment as a regular course of work. The fact is the vast majority of SWAT actions nationwide are raids which are initiated wholly by the SWAT itself. They put themselves in dangerous scenarios fit for military operations (often for the purpose of seizing valuable assets), then cry for military equipment in the name of reducing the danger to their officers --do you see the self-serving argument here?

As with all abuses of authority, the whole thing can be explained by laziness;
-Local cops would hate the ordeal of negotiating with reinforcements (so either abdicating their authority to natl groups or gaining force parity is logistically simpler)
-Local cops are more effective with military tactics/equipment, thus using these as a regular course of their duties makes the job easier
-National level bureaus hate dealing with local bumpkins who can't see the forest for the trees, so pushing them out of the way and taking authority is far easier

All this misses the point, though, that arguments about rangers overseeing huge swaths of terrain probably doesn't apply to the USDA in all but the rarest of circumstances. If the BLM has a set of storm troopers, why does the park service, and the USDA? Don't their missions mesh well enough that they could utilize a shared rural SWAT force (or whatever it is these groups are allegedly for)? In reality, it's pure feudalism; each bureau gets its goon squad so it doesn't have to cede command to another agency under any scenario. They race each other's arms as best they can, so they can claim their capabilities are superior and thus deserving of more authority. Completely undermines the whole concept and purpose of our tiered system of government and law enforcement. The local cops aren't military personnel just because it'd cost too much; it's also because they would abuse their power.

TCB
 
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