The Webley Mk. IV Revolver - A writer's Query.

[Remmi]

Hello again; I'm back after a long absence from my last post; had a bit of trouble and didn't have much time for anything really. But I think a few of you might remember some of my sandbox questions about guns before; to those who don't I'll get it out of the way at the start: I'm something of a Writer and Artist and also a armchair gun enthusiast, meaning I enjoy them from the angle of not being able to afford them. As such firearms often figure into my works, since I tend to favor a Horror theme, and I like to be as accurate as possible when I employ or alter them for use as a plot device.

Ok, so with the disclaimer out of the way that'll apply to a couple of other threads, I've recently begun working on a story set in England and the European Regions spanning the times of around the 1890's and the early 1920's, with most of the current plot taking place in 1902 to the beginning of WW1. I've done a bit of research but I've got no actual hands on experience, the main character, Harker; an Irish-born Paranormal Investigator in the lines of H.P. Lovecraft's works, uses a customized Webley Mark IV chambered in .455 Webley as his signature sidearm, in addition to a variety of custom-built artillery to help him tackle the hordes of the supernatural, such as a double-barreled shotgun with composite barrels to fire Zirconium incendiary shells.

My biggest problem is finding comparable ballistics and power ratios for the period firearms I'm using, particularly the Webley's now defunct .445 cartridge, I don't have any comparable round that's in modern production to look up for a impact and knockdown reference. I understand the theory, It's a heavy .45 caliber slug afterall, that's going to do some serious damage and hit like a speeding Buick besides. On top of that, I'm unsure as to what kind of modifications one could have made to said Webley Mk. IV in the time-period, I'd like to make use of some more supernatural ammunitions; the iconic Silver Bullets and such, but again, I'm just an enthusiast and not an expert, so I'd like to make my embellishments laced with enough truth for them to be entertaining.

This is a sandbox scenario of course, but what kind of power and performance does this pistol and it's defunct cartridge have? What kind of things can mimic a lead slug's weight and deformation enough to be used as a 'special' load? I've run into these difficulties more in this then modern-set fiction, as there's less really available technology in the 1902 time period then there is now. It's an alternate-history story though, so it's possible to throw a few engineering-based modern ideas back into the past to make them seem sort of 'magic' or advanced in the classical Pulp Fiction ideal, such as JHP slugs and anti-armor penetrators; so feel free to offer those sorts of suggestions too; I assure you there's more then one of you that knows a great deal more about that part of gunsmithing then I!

Thanks in advance, but hopefully this'll be a fun little sandbox question to lighten the day with.

 

[Tribal]

I read this post with a posh British accent in mind and it made complete sense.

 

[Remmi]

I read this post with a posh British accent in mind and it made complete sense.

Then imagining my slightly-texan accent should make your sides split with mirth.

Is there something wrong with proper grammar and a large vocabulary?

 

[nelson133]

I don't know about what mods you would make to that revolver. It's chief advantage was the break open action made for fast unloading and reloading. The cartridge was a low powered with a hollow base bullet, something like 650 fps. As far as "hitting like a Buick", there isn't any handgun cartridge that would do that from that time. The 2 most powerful handgun cartridges of that era were the .45 Colt and the .38-40 Winchester, though a case could be made for the 7.63 Mauser in the Broomhandle pistol because of its penetration and velocity.

 

[Remmi]

I don't know about what mods you would make to that revolver. It's chief advantage was the break open action made for fast unloading and reloading. The cartridge was a low powered with a hollow base bullet, something like 650 fps. As far as "hitting like a Buick", there isn't any handgun cartridge that would do that from that time. The 2 most powerful handgun cartridges of that era were the .45 Colt and the .38-40 Winchester, though a case could be made for the 7.63 Mauser in the Broomhandle pistol because of its penetration and velocity.

I've read some articles online comparing the .45 Long Colt and the .445 Webley, and most state the .445 had the edge in power due to the slug's weight and size advantage over the Colt. Wasn't it in the 1901 Thompson-LeGarde reports?

I was curious to that, though; the choice for the Webley was made for Historical accuracy, as it'd be easier for a England-Based Irishmen to attain then an american-made Colt; and the .445 Webley cart would be in more ready supply as a military sidearm.

EDIT: Though looking up the .45 Colt, it does have a higher muzzle velocity, would it be possible to use .45 Colt in a .445; or is the size difference too severe?

 

[buttrap]

only time the .455 would have the "edge" on a .45 colt is in gun adds of the time....same size and weight slug at 650 fps vs 1000 fps. the colt wins every time. The .455 does better on paper if you smoke crack then read. I should mention that the .45 colt is based of the older brit ely .45 load with the idea of double the power. The brits still stuck to the original 1870 very slow idea till the 1950s and then figured out that the 9mm has more whack.

 

[Remmi]

only time the .455 would have the "edge" on a .45 colt is in gun adds of the time....same size and weight slug at 650 fps vs 1000 fps. the colt wins every time. The .455 does better on paper if you smoke crack then read.

I did find reference to it in the Thompson-LeGarde report, but I do think that was for average shootability and recoil; not direct ballistics, at least, that would be my guess.

Anyways, what about re-chambering the Webley for the .45 Colt? They've got comparable dimensions for the most part, and I see people have re-chambered it for .45 ACP with half-moon clips.

 

[Tribal]

Remmi,

No offense intended; it just seemed appropriate to me that a story taking place in Britain/Europe in the early 1900s should have a posh British accent, just as one about the Alamo should have a distinct Texas twang. I guess I meant it more as a compliment, seeing as your description of the story evoked the setting well. In any case, I apologize for any offense.

 

[armoredman]

Have your character have the Webley for a CCW peice, backed up by a .577 Trantor revolver, or a Howdah Pistol, basically a double rifle cut down into a side by side handcannon.

 

[Remmi]

Have you charachter have the Webley for a CCW peice, backed up by a .577 Trantor revolver, or a Howdah Pistol, basically a double rifle cut down into a side by side handcannon.

I laughed. I did so quite hard. I think that's a tad overkill; I just wanted a nice region-appropriate revolver with a fairly strong knockdown behind it; the quick reloading of the break-top design was preferable to a loading-port and the reliability of a revolver vs. period automatics was definitely desirable.

I'm working on a reasonable firearm for carrying around; He's already got a cut-down 12-gauge loaded with Zirconium Rock-salt shells. Nothing like a 10' blast of Holy Fire and superheated Purifying Salts to ruin some freak of nature's day. Though the .577 Trantor is new to me, I'll have to look it up.

However, a little research has told me I could convert the Webley to .45 Colt by reboring the cylinder and retrofitting the extractor for the longer cases (The .445 Cases are much shorter then .45 colt, so they'd make the stock extractor stick), or just transplanting a modified ejector from a Schofield Model 3; the overall structure might need a tad bit of strengthening for the higher-pressure loads, but they can fire .45 ACP just fine, and it doesn't exibit too much different pressures then .45 colt.

However, I may just decide to have him use specially loaded .445 Webley brass for more believable oomph and less invasive changes.

 

[John C]

Ahhh, a man after my own heart. I have a found love of Cthulhu-esque horror, myself.

That said, I think if the protagonist is a current or former British officer, he would still own his private-purchase service sidearm. Note that at this time, officers purchased all of their own accoutrements. His sidearm would be in .455 Webley (probably just a typo on your part, but you have typed .445 in previous posts). However, if the officer was some sort of gun nut, then the .577 revolver is the way to go.

http://www.firearmsmuseum.org.au/Survey/images-577.htm for pictures.

Basically, the top-break Webley revolver was maxed out with the .455 cartridge. The later .45 acp conversions were really too much for the frame, accelerating wear considerably. However, depending on the protagonist's past, a .45 colt or .44 Russian would not be unreasonable. Is the protagonist a crack pistol shot? He would've been exposed to the .44 Russian, a reknowned target cartridge, from a visiting American shooting team. Perhaps he won a Colt SAA from an American Marine officer during the Boxer Rebellion in a card game. As for the .577, well, "one shot would put a fuzzy-wuzzy down for good." Other private purchase arms were not uncommon in British service. Winston Churchill is well known to have carried a brand new C96 broomhandle Mauser in the Sudan.

As for heavier stuff, a rich man might have access to a Maxim machine gun. The old British saw rings true: "Whatever happens we have got/the maxim gun and they have not"

Not to critique your ideas, but would artillery really turn back unworldly beings? Or perhaps just annoy them? Or will the protagonists just be dispersing crazed cultists trying to summon these horrific beings? Artillery of this era, more so than even today, is a crew served proposition. Whereas today three guys with a Humvee and a 105mm howitzer could really do some damage, then an artillery piece would require a full 6 or 8 horse team and like 6 to 12 gunners to man it.

Good luck!

-John

 

[Remmi]

Good info there John, and I might have been hitting .445 instead, it's a simple enough thing to transpose.

He's a fairly crack shot; sort of learned through necessity over the years, and is fairly burly too (6'3" and about 210 lbs) so he's built like a brawler; most of the reason I chose the Webley was for the fact it was a well-documented, functionally reliable firearm common in Europe , and was a logical british step from my personal favorite The Smith and Wesson Schofield Model 3; also a top-break revolver, also .45 Colt. The Top-break design was key in my choice because it allowed several shots to be fired off and was easily reloaded in a jiffy; also you don't want to discount the staggering potential of emptying a cylinder full of hot brass into someone/something's face.

His would be a bit better then a stock Mark IV; he's got a fair degree of mechanical skills, and a guy who works with him as sort of a Go-to-Guy for Occult-Based artifacts and unique inventions. I imagine he could easily solve some of the minor issues with a heavier barrel and a slightly thicker frame and all; so I figure his custom Mark IV; if I decide to go the .45 Colt route, would appear overall a bit 'beefier' then the standard, plus personal embellishments and some add-ons; like custom-fitted grip plauqes and maybe an attachment for a crude optical scope or a sighting rig like on a Sharps.

I admit a good deal of it was the romanticism of the Revolver, I;m a fair artist, and intend to illustrate part of it, or even convert it graphic novel; I needed something with a little more aesthetic pop to it that was also functional and believable, I liked the lines of the Webley, and the way it fit with the dingy Victorian theme of the rest of the storyline, it had an appreciable pop too; even at 650 FPS, a .45 caliber slug isn't a camel fart by any means. Though it would help to have a bit more knockdown in it; of course.

And yeah, working off of actual mythological beasts, many of them would be surprisingly vulnerable to a variety of firearms, loaded with the right ammunition; the Zirconium-Salt shotgun does a great job against specters, as the purifying salts disrupt their manifestation, and the flame scatters the rest; not a 'kill' but it puts them back on their heels enough for the proper methods to be put in place to remove them; the 'Proton Pack' as it were, not the 'Trap.'

Most of his weapons should be civvie-level things beefed-up with some less-then-legal modifications, parts are easier to obtain then entire weapons, after-all; Also he's not filthy rich, so it's easier to modify a working man's gun to be extremely lethal then buy a rich man's gun stock.

Of course, all of this is within a forgivable amount of artistic license. I'm not Tom Clancy.

 

[Jim Watson]

If I wanted something more powerful than a .455 Webley (Repeat, not .445, although there was a .442 Webley) in 1902, I would pick a Colt New Service .45 Colt. That was good enough for the RCMP (who used them in both .455 and .45) and, of all people, the Canadian Navy. Not to mention the New York State Police.

One option for more power, that would likely have been obsolete by the time of the story, is the Lancaster 4- barrel. The usual version was in .455 Webley but gained power by longer barrels and no cylinder gap.

Me? I'd "make do" with a .455. A friend has a Webley-Green that is a jewel of a revolver, and would add some panache over the usual service Webley & Scott.

 

[Remmi]

Panache is good; but considered what I've already said; without extensive rebuilding of the gun, what could be done to the .455 (Yes, it was a typo. I kept thinking 'Forty-five') cartridge to give it some oomph? Was it possible to 'hot load' a .455 Webley for some extra kick? Or machine a custom pair of frame-pins to make the top-break's opening parts stronger?

Or am I making a big fuss over nothing? I don't intend to really explain the exact external ballistics of the gun every time he uses it; But I wanted it to have a solid visual impact on the poor creature looking down the business end; a good jerk back or even full-out knockdown if it was man-sized: Would there be a giant noticeable difference between a 650 and a roughly 900FPs slug of these rather large sizes? I mean, 9MM is a good deal faster then .45 ACP, but one'll definitely leave a bigger impact on sheer lead-weight alone.

I may be overthinking this.

 

[Jim Watson]

You are overthinking. The .455 standard load was accepted practice in a lot of very tough country. Best not to hotload a topbreak and beefing one up to stand it is movie type stuff, which I presume you wish to avoid. The .45 ACP conversions are running at .455 proof test pressures.
If you want more impact, look up the Webley Manstopper. Variously loaded as a flat faced full wadcutter or a hollow point hollow based wadcutter, it was considered very effective against all manner of (human) adversaries.

By the way, the S&W No 3 Schofield was NOT chambered in .45 Colt. It was made for the shorter .45 S&W to fit the cylinder length. After some confusing and dangerous ammunition issue mixups, the Army went to a .45 Government cartridge that was essentially the .45 S&W for use in both Smith and Colt revolvers. Not much different from .455 Webley.

 

[Remmi]

The Model 3 wasn't eh?

That's weird, I've looked it up loads and always see it chambered as '.45 Long Colt', perhaps it's a common error, or just a misread. I'll check again.

Thanks. Sometimes I get hung up on numbers and stop looking at the practical matters of things.

 

[John C]

Remmi;

Note that many current reproduction Schofields are chambered in .45 Colt, but that the originals were not.

-John

 

[Jim March]

The main modifications that would be "period correct" might involve upgraded sights.

The Brits came up with a specific type of gun for African game: a large double rifle with "Express" sights. Express sights use a shallow V-groove rear and a front dot - often a bead of ivory although gold, silver and sometimes brass are seen often enough. It wouldn't be all that outrageous to set up a handgun that way, patterned off of the Express rifles.

Today, one company specializes in these setups for handguns, often combining Tritium vials (serious glow-in-the-dark):

http://www.xssights.com/store/handgun.html

This sight type isn't as accurate at peak as traditional target sights but they're very fast to align. They're a close-in combat sight with excellent performance in that role. The original rifle Express sights were meant for dealing with sudden charging nasty critters, and to this day are often carried by the guide. The Hunter is supposed to take longer shots, but if it all goes wrong the guide brings major power to bear at close range, in a hurry.

A white bone front bead and possibly a matching bone vertical bar at the rear (see the link above) would be practical for handgun shooting and might have all sorts of supernatural tie-ins depending on whose bone it used to be . Your protagonist could have got the idea off a hunter or guide with African experience, or could have picked up the idea on safari himself.

Ivory and/or bone grip panels would also be reasonable enough, possibly matching the sights, and/or carved with any manner of stuff...see also the concept of "scrimshaw", well known in the period you're dealing with.

Sights on handguns have improved massively over the last 30 or so years. Late 19th century handgun sights tended to completely suck wind. My personal favorite gun that I own is a near-reproduction of an 1873 Colt (Ruger "New Vaquero") but I've upgraded the sights on that to something much more modern - square target-pattern front on a custom base, rear sight channel hogged out and squared to match.

 

[Mike OTDP]

Jim's right. The basic gun is sound, in place, period, and function. The only real modifications that one might make would be to tune the trigger, modify the sights, and possibly shorten or lengthen the barrel.

 

[NORTEXED]

Webley also made at least a few of theirs in .577 also. Not sure how many, but they did exist.

 

[Trebor]

Webley also made at least a few of theirs in .577 also. Not sure how many, but they did exist.

I just read an article on the .577 Webley in one of the gun rags. Unfortunately, I tossed the magazine after I finished it. It was one of the more recent issues though so if you search around you might be able to find it.

Here's a thought: Have your character use the standard .455 Webley at first. While he finds it works well against humans, maybe he'll run into a monster where it doesn't work well. After that, he could "upgrade" to the .577 Webley or a cut-down Howdah gun or something similar in response.

As far as custom smithing, just mention that he smoothed and tuned the internals for a smoother trigger pull or installed "Express" sights or some such.

 

[Remmi]

Now that's a thought; for that period a .577 Webley would practically be a six-shot twelve gauge slugthrower; pardon the exaggeration for style. But yes, the .577's got some definite GIRTH on it compared to the .455 'Double A Battery' size. It'd be a good practical lead in for some tooled bone grips or a longer, heavier barrel to push back some of the muzzle climb.

As for the tooling and such; bear in mind it doesn't have to be dead-on period appropriate, as it's Lovecraftian horror, it's got a margin of 'Fluff Zone' that I can include; reverse engineering from Things Not Meant For Man and just thinking a little out of sanity's box all that; I can include some slightly modern aspects to modifications as long as they stay within the applicable technologies of the day: such as making a jump from Dum-Dum 'Manstoppers' to a crude JHP round, or minimizing a currently existing larger-scale technology, like the Canister Rounds for British Howitzers. It's definitely fluff but it's not a direct translation, sort of like an Alternate History novel; like inventing steam-powered Tanks in the Civil War, or if the Japanese Fire-Cannons had really caught on globally with the following of the Dark Ages.

Like I said before, I'm not Tom Clancy, but I like it to be realistic enough a passing reader or shootist could see and and think "Oh that's clever."

 

[Maddock]

There is a thread on the Webley (including pictures) here with an emphasis on the .577.
The Webley .455 was considered to be quite a manstopper in it's day and I go along with Jim and others that trying to hot-rod a Webley would A) not be a safe thing to do and B) inconsistent with standard practice at the time.

 

[Jim Watson]

Maddock: Hamilton Bowen said he doubted if there were more than three or four hundred .577 revolvers built, all sources and makers. Including his, no doubt.

Remmi: If you scared up (Hmm, should we use that expression?) a copy of The Gun and its Development, by W.W. Greener - mine is the 1910 edition, but it was a revision of the basic book his Father started on - you will find a recipe for making explosive bullets. That is getting out of the realm of sanity... but real nonetheless.

The hollowpoint bullets succeeding the original dum-dum (named for the Dum Dum Arsenal in India, where the type was originated by Captain Bertie Clay) were not "crude JHPs" at all. The designs were quite sophisticated, the British Army calling for an expansive bullet that would be accurate at long range. They tried all the soft- and hollowpoint hunting bullets of the day and found them to cause devastating wounds, but not to be accurate beyond typical game ranges, far short of the distance wanted for firing on enemy formations.

 

[44AMP]

Webley Mk VI

I have one, made 1917, that someone, sometime in the past converted to .45 ACP (alas!) using the half moon clips. My gun was just "barely" converted, because not enough metal was removed to allow the use of .45 Auto Rim brass (they drag on the recoil shield), nor will the gun accept the full moon type clips, as everyone I have found is thicker than the half moon clips I got with the gun (and I got about 30-40 sets).

I amin the middle of a project (shelved for the winter), to find or make some ammo for this gun. Hornady now has .455 Webley ammo, and like the original, it is a pointed lead bullet, 265gr (compared to .45 Colt 250/255gr), and Hornady says it goes 680fps at the muzzle. Due to the mods to my Webley, it will no longer reliably fire the .455 ammo.

The case is short, and the rim is very thin. A .45 Colt (trimmed to proper length) probably would not work, because the Colt rim is thicker, and might drag on the recoil shield. I can't say for sure, but it might be a problem with an unaltered Webley.

The .455 was considered a good manstopper by the British, but remember what they were comparing it to. Various and sundry low powered .38 cal rounds, and a small numer of high speed FMJ rounds (.30 Luger&Mauser, 9mm Luger, etc) none of which ever got a good reputation as manstoppers. In addition the .455 slug was rather soft, so it would upset easily, and the low speed meant there was a good chance of the slug not exiting.

To give your character the most stopping power possible, while still sticking with the older Webley revolver and the .455 round, I suggest using special ammo, either a flat nose (SWC/WC) or perhaps a "cup point" (large hollow point) bullet, of course made of soft lead. Cup points could also be filled with garlic, silver, wolfsbane, holly, holy whatever, etc., whatever is most damaging to the particular vermin of the night that needs to be dispatched.

Silver bullets are popular in horror fiction (and with the Lone Ranger), but remember silver's different properties as a metal from lead. Silver is harder, and lighter than lead. Silver bullets cast in ordinary bullet molds will not be the proper size (sliver shrinks differently from lead as it cools), and would either be undersize, or oversize (I cannot remeber if silver shrinks more or less than lead) Specially made molds could correct this. Silver is lighter than lead, so the bullets would go faster, but would not shoot to the sights like regular ammo. Lighter bullets, higher speed, different trajectory. And silver is likely too hard to expand, (break up maybe, but not mushroom) so silver hollow points don't give you much, except maybe someplace to put some garlic or holy wafer.

Anyway, hope this helps, and good luck.