The Webley Mk. IV Revolver - A writer's Query.

[Joe the Redneck]

OK, first things first. It is a fantasy novel. It will be mostly be read by people who have a limited knowledge of guns. Don't worry so much about it.

Second, have you seen "Hellboy"? He carries the very weapon you are describing, called the "Samaratin." It looks to be about .72 caliber and fires all kinds of ammo from silver tip bullets to vials of holy water. In reality it would weigh 20 pounds, so what. It's all in fun.

If you did use a frontloading weapon, he could easily mix up all kinds of magical "shot loads" to kill the things that go bump in the night. Might be a cool device.

Joe

 

[Jim K]

For pure fantasy, he can have the guy armed with a Bubble and Squeak Model 674 in .899mm caliber, perfect for killing zombies.

In the real world, the Webley Mk IV is a medium frame revolver, made in .32 or .38.

The British Government Mk IV (made by Webley) is a .455 caliber revolver with a "birds head" grip and no "hump", which must have made it hard to control. With the old ammunition, the .455 caliber had a muzzle velocity of 600 feet per second. I don't know if that would be enough for zombies or not.

Jim

 

[Lone Star]

Remmi-

I think that you're making this too complicated.

By the way, if you're a writer, you should know that Writer isn't normally capitalized.

If you want a Webley MK IV, go for that. You might have him order one with a honed action (for smoothness) and a commercial blued finish. They also had an Army revolver that was basically a MK. IV with a six-inch barrel and a square butt, almost identical to the later MK VI. It was not an issue item, officers buying their own sidearms then.

You could have him use a Webley-Wilkinson or WG revolver chambered for .476, which threw a 280 grain bullet at some 700 FPS. That was about the max practical in such a gun. Although the .476's original home, the Enfield revolver of the 1880's, was obsolete, the ammo was still available, and it would hit harder than standard .455.

I'd say to let the guy carry a MK. IV with nicer than standard finish in settled areas, and have him use a .45 Colt for meaner places. That's what I thought Sherlock Holmes should have taken after the Hound of the Baskervilles. But Sir Arthur Conan Doyle knew very little about guns.

Speaking of Doyle brings me to my own Fan Fiction about a TV series based on a book of his, not in the Holmes series.

Have you read, "The Lost World"? A syndicated TV series made in Australia was made about it recently (1999-2002) and several movies were based on it over the years. The TV series has some die-hard fans, like the first, "Star Trek" series. There are a number of fan sites still operating.

I noted the guns in the TV series, and stayed with those for my Fics, adding some types that they probably had, or could have had, whether the explorers were seen with them on the show or not.

Because this was very much in the time frame that you mention, 1919-1923 on the show, that data would apply.

Will Snow, as Lord John Roxton, wore (depending on the episode) a brace of nickled Webley MK. VI's in shoulder holsters, or a Colt M-1911 .45 auto . Ned Malone, the American reporter, used a Webley MK IV .38 (really not made until 1927) or another .45 auto. Prof. Challenger had a Colt .45 SAA. Dr. Summerlee (killed off at the end of the First Season) had a MK. IV Webley .38, as did several transient characters. I guess the prop house in Queensland had some on hand...I just assumed that they MEANT to have them represent MK. III .38's. (These guns are NOT numbered in the military Mark series.)


Finn (blonde chick in the Third Season) used a small crossbow, but I replaced it in my Fics with a Smith & Wesson M&P .38, taken from some dead slavers after an early story. It has a five-inch barrel.

Finn also (in my Fics) uses two rifles. One is a 6.5mm Mannlicher-Schoenauer and a .44/40 Winchester M-92 carbine. Which depends on what she expects to encounter on a given day.

Challenger uses a H&H .450 double rifle, like he had on the show. Lord Roxton has a .416 Rigby, true to the show, or a .318 Westley Richards for a lighter rifle. Margurite Krux, whose handgun was a S&W hammerless .38, (sometimes subbed for on TV by Webley WP or Iver Johnson hammerless guns) has a .303 sporter made by BSA. Actress Rachel Blaklely DID use a .303 on the show, but it had a Monte Carlo stock, and probably dated from the 1960's. I have her carry one made in the REAL style of the day. She also has (in the Fics) a Rigby .275.

Ned Malone has a .30 cal. Springfield M-1903 rifle. Also a .450 that I suspect was made for the Army & Navy Cooperative stores, given that his newspaper probably wouldn't spring for a Holland & Holland or Rigby or Purdey double for him.

In the book, which I have just bought and not yet read, I saw a .577 double rifle mentioned. This was in fact a popular elephant rifle around WW I, even later.

Now, what the explorers had to fear in that book/ series was dinosaurs that had survived on a remote plateau in South America. They would also have to be concerned about any real Amazonian animals and hostile Indians. (In one Fic, I had Finn get up a tree with her Mannlicher and snipe a Xingu headhunter from some 300 yards.)

I mentioned all this because the time frame is the same, roughly, and because I know guns of that day very well, and already did my homework before writing those Fics, 17 of them so far.

Except that you seem to be concerned with monsters for a horror story, the need seems much the same. I don't know what monsters you have in mind, but doubt they'd be any tougher than the larger dinsoaurs that the Lost World explorers faced. So, I made my suggestions.

I didn't equip anyone with one, but S&W's .44 revolvers like the famous Triple Lock and the Second Model Hand Ejector were available then, too. In fact, Sasha Siemel, who lived in Brazil in those days, used S&W .44's quite extensively. He later had S&W .357's and one of the first .44 Magnums, but that was later than your time frame. I recommend his books, such as, "Tigrero" for your reading, also the works of the African hunters of the day. Interlibrary Loan may help you locate a reading copy of, "Tigrero", printed in the early 1950's.

Hmmm...I just recalled that I DID have one bad guy use a Smith & Wesson .44 Special. He was one of Zoth's minions, in my Fic, "The Death of Zoth". Zoth was a demon who had caused a horrible war in the 21st Century, which Finn survived, to be brought back to 1922 by Prof. Challenger, in a one-shot time machine built into a cave.

That's all that I have time for. But those are the very guns that I chose for this time period, roughly. Oh: I once had Marguerite tell her lover, Lord John Roxton, to wear a Colt .32 automatic under his tux in a scene where he dressed up for a more formal occasion. A British gentleman of that day might very well have carried such a gun for concealed needs. Colt was always well represented in Britain, and they had no bad gun laws until 1920. Even after, the peerage and other well connected persons could easily get gun licenses.

I hope that this entertained some here.

You can hear Australian actor Will Snow's voice now on the Outback Steakhouse commercials. That's Will as himself, not faking a British accent. He and co-star Jennifer O'Dell (Veronica) have also had some guest roles on American TV, at least once together. (On, "THe Closer".) Jen is American, the only actress in that series who was. Finn sounded American, but actress Lara Cox was born in Canberra, and lives now near Sydney. She has also gotten some later guest roles. Alas, the shows weren't seen here, although if anyone is interested, I can probably tell you how to see her in one series in episodes on YouTube.

Is anyone else here here a Lost World fan? If so, you may like this video of the three Treehouse ladies, made by a Dutch fan. She's pretty good. The music is, "Harem" from the CD of that name by the famous Sarah Brightman. See Finn, Veronica, and Marguerite here, and understand at least some of the appeal of the Lost World series. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UAX6HSQuNAI&mode=related&search=

Lone Star

 

[tipoc]

Having your character carrying a Webley is a good idea.

The .455 Webley round, which is also known as the 455 MkI and MkII and sometimes the .455 Eley is still a round that is offered by factories today. Kynoch and Fiocchi among them. Just to confuse things in the U.S. is was called the .455 Colt for quite awhile.

I suggest you get ahold of a couple of books, both can be had cheap.

The first is "Pistols of the World" by Ian Hogg. This book is a useful resource for a writer, much more so than the internet, when it comes to guns. Here you can find out what guns were introduced when. This will make a difference if your character is carrying a gun in 1880 that was not introduced until 1893. Not all your readers would know but an anglophile would. As it takes all of three minutes to check, these small points do make for a better read. This will also give you period correct guns to put in the hands of your human bad guys.

In 1878 for example the Webley Army Express Model was introduced in .455 with a 6" barrel, shortly after they became the Webley New Model Army Express. At the same time the Webley Pryse with a 3" barrel in .455 was being sold. The latter made a good concealed carry piece.

The other is "Cartridges of the World" by Barnes.

By the time the First World War rolled around the U.S. sent quite a number of Smith and Wesson Triple Locks in .455 to England your character may want to get one of these.

tipoc

 

[VirgilCaine]

(Repeat, not .445, although there was a .442 Webley)

Ah, yes. As I remember they also had deliciously lethal exploding bullets for that gun.

 

[RyanM]

I believe the .455 Webley was a 255 (or maybe it was 300?) grain bullet at about 600-650 fps. The older .38 caliber round for use in Webleys was a 200 grain bullet at the same speed. The way I understand it, the main "theory" (if you could even call it a theory) to stopping power on that side of the pond was you wanted as heavy a bullet as possible, and you also wanted it to not exit the body. Thus, very heavy and very slow.

Anyway, one route a serious gunfighter might take, if he especially values a lightning-fast draw, would be to modify the gun something like what Fairbairn and Sykes describe as the ultimate undercover detective revolver.

I could definitely see the value of such a gun for fighting vampires, werewolves, or "fast" zombies. If they manage to get into close range, you need to get that pistol into action immediately or you're dead. Or worse than dead, really.

The type of pistol to be chosen depends on the use to which it is to be put. A pistol that meets the needs of the detective or plain-clothes man, for instance, is not necessarily suitable for individual self-defense or for the uniformed service man.

Let us consider first the case of the detective or plain-clothes man. Here the weapon must be carried concealed and the wearer must be prepared for the quickest of quick draws and an instantaneous first shot, most probably at very close quarters. For that purpose, our own choice would be a cut-down revolver of heavy calibre. Fig. 22 (b) on p. 89 will show you better than any description what we mean.

The weapon shown in the illustration started life as a .45 Colt New Service double-action revolver with a 5-inch barrel. The hammer spur has been cut off, the barrel length reduced to 2 inches, the front part of the trigger-guard has been removed, and grooves have been cut on the left side of the butt for the middle, third and little fingers.

Now for the reasons for this drastic treatment. The big New Service revolver was chosen, primarily, because the butt is of adequate size for the average man's hand to grasp in a hurry without any fumbling. Secondly, it is one of the most possible weapons possible to obtain.

The removal of the hammer spur and the smoothing over of what remains prevent the weapon from catching in the clothing when drawn in a violent hurry. As the hammer cannot be cocked by the thumb, the weapon has to be fired by a continuous pull on the trigger. With a sufficiency of practice, very fast shooting is rendered possible by this method.

The shortening of the barrel is for speed in drawing. Obviously, it takes less time for 2 inches of barrel to emerge from the holster than 5 inches. Contrary to what might be expected, there is no loss of accuracy, at the ranges at which the weapon is customarily used.

The front part of the trigger-guard is removed in order to eliminate yet another possible cause of fumbling when speed is the order of the day. The index-finger, no matter of what length or thickness, wraps itself in the proper position round the trigger without any impediment whatever. The grooves on the butt are there to ensure that the fingers grip the weapon in exactly the same way every time.

Lest it be thought that we are the originators of this fearsome but eminently practical weapon, let us say at once that we are not. We owe the idea to a book by Mr J. H. Fitzgerald of the Colt's Patent Fire Arms Manufacturing Company, and we gladly acknowledge our indebtedness.

 

[Remmi]

Thanks for all the replies, Lone Star and 44AMP in particular had some very good tips for a writer in this exact type of 'Low' fiction setting (Which is a term typically applied to 'Low Fantasy' such as Conan the Barbarian or Tarzan, the sort where the uber all-encompassing magics of Tolkien's era are non-existent).

I've been busy at work on the concept, looking up things and cross-referencing the various firearms you've given me, as well as putting in some hours on development sketches, so sorry I haven't been able to post back for a few days, it's hang out on THR - or get things done.

A few things I'd like espeically to give notice to though, one is the fact that the .455 round was primarily designed NOT to over penetrate gives me a good series of ideas to work with as far as special ammunitions are concerned; some sort of Frangible round comes to mind at first, to maximize the internal damage such a big chunk of lead playing pinball with your internal organs can do. Secondly, the cup-shaped JHP idea struck me as workable, especially if the 'Fillers' for the JHP core are seated deeper and work like a more modern AP Penetrator, letting the force of the soft slug expanding through and against the flesh ram their harder substances deeper into the body with greater velocity (Like a hammer on a nail): it'd be a far cry more devastating then your plain jane Silver Bullet; and could work with a wide variety of harder materials, Boron Carbide was actually discovered in the 1800's, and it could be a nasty addition.

As a fan of Mike Mignola's comics, I'm well aware of the Samaritan Revolver, but that's a bit TOO fantasy for my tastes, the specs on that are at least 20mm and it'd been noted several times in both the comics and the films that even with his 'Demonic Strength', Hellboy himself can barely control the recoil and is 'A lousy shot'. I do like several design concepts behind it though, the heavier-gauge pin and lock where the top-break frame opens would be a good concept, as well as the general shape of the grips, for the time period I'm working with. But I'd like to keep the munition itself hovering around the .45 or .50 caliber pistol mark: He's got a breech-loading shotgun and chopped-down 45-70 government lever-action for anything bigger.

Now as the point to why I'm thinking so hard on this is it still is INDEED a Horror Novel, not like one of these 'Horror' movies that's a popcorn action flick with extra gore and girlish screams. His weapons are supposed to be designed to kill these creatures IN THEORY, but as the Dark Things From Beyond, to borrow a line from Lovecraft, are a fairly mutable, ever-changing foe, this won't always be the case. I want the guns to still seem familiar, human and just a little more special then average; but still leaving in the cold, heart-freezing terror of a Survival Horror Situation where he's just one man, trapped in some condemned hellhole, with a gun, a prayer, and only so many bullets.

I think it's said best; "You put John McLane into a horror film, and you're not scared: this guy's killed terrorists and freakin' Alan Rickman in a wife-beater and no shoes. Now, You put your average police officer in a film, take away all his backup and then, then you're scared."

 

[Lone Star]

Remmi-

I understand your reasoning, but do not consder the Tarzan BOOKS to be of "low" quality. Burroughs was a master of his craft, and the books easily eclipse the Tarzan movies.

They aroused my interest in jungle adventure, which is why I watched, "THe Lost World", although that TV show also had some of the "higher" fantasy elements that you mention.

I actually once sold a story on what Tarzan's knife must have been like, to a cutlery title. I wrote that as if the character had been real, and knowing which types his father would likely have had on that fatal voyage, where Tarzan's parents perished. (Tarzan probably would have had a number of knives over the years, but his first had belonged to his dead father.)


Lone Star

 

[Slamfire]

I have a Webley MkIV converted to 45 Auto Rim.

The round has to be down loaded or the locking backstrap will stretch. I use 250-255 grain bullets which are close to the 265 ish grain bullets of the original cartridge. My loads are less than 650 fps which gives a very comfortable push.

I have read that the British were enamored with the idea of a large bullet and slow velocity. The fact that the Webley used a large diameter soft lead bullet made it an effective manstopper, but there is not the sort of momentum to blow arms/legs/heads off of anyone.

The sights are excellent, they are designed for fast acquisition. The revolver is a natural pointer. Period writings indicate that the British wanted a revolver that could be pointed and fired quickly double action and yet have a high hit probability without aiming.



I like the fact the revolver does not have to change hands when reloading. Just push the lever with the right thumb, push on the barrel with the left, and the cylinder is in a natural up and down position for reloading, and your right hand is still on the grip. Without a doubt the barrel could be pushed against your thigh to open the action while the left hand is digging in a pocket for shells.

 

[Lone Star]

Slamfire 1-

You may also own a MK. IV Webley, but the one you picured is a MK VI, introduced in 1915.

You can probably get that mud (?) off the grip with a wet toothbrush. Mild hand soap will usually suffice. Or, dish liquid soap. Take the grip off to keep moisture off the steel, and dont dry it under harsh heat. Those old Bakelite grips can be relatively brittle after all these years.

You can use a Lead Wipeaway cloth or Simichrome metal polish to polish the rear face of the cylinder, which looks awful!

In my earlier post here, I mentioned that a pair of these were carried by Lord Roxton on, "The Lost World" when he didn't wear a Colt .45 auto. His were nickled, with white butts.

One of these in standard military form was my first handgun, age 13. My mom had to sign for it, of course.

If you can "slug" the bore and size bullets to fit, accuracy should be much better than if you use .452" bullets meant for .45 auto Rim. Keep in mind that bullet weight alone isn't the whole answer to keeping pressure within limits. The bearing surface also matters.

However, the so-called Dum-Dum or manstopper bullets in .455 were basically full wadcutter profile, so the long bearing surface didn't seem an issue within normal pressure loadings. The MK. III Dum-Dum weighed about 225 grains, and was hollowpointed. Normal MK II bullets weighed 265 grains.

The MK. IV has a "birdshead" butt, and was indeed intended for quick pointing in close quarters battle. I really think the British saw revolvers as sort of repeating versions of their former flintlock and percussion single-shot pistols, to be pointed naturally. Most were smoothbore.

Yes, indeed, in extremis you can push the barrel down against your leg to open and eject fired cases as your left hand reaches for fresh ammo.

These guns were often used in very close encounters with savage Afghans and Indians, where delay in reloading mght get a man killed by a sword or a Khyber knife.

Take care of that fine old gun. They cost a danged sight more now than when I paid $13.88 at Montgomery Ward's back in the 1960's. But the price isn't the real reason to care for it: it is history in your hand. Pass it along in good condition to the next generation!

Lone Star

 

[Remmi]

Just a quick note to Lone Star; Low Fantasy denotes different from High Fantasy based on subject matter. Tarzan and Conan are Low Fantasy due to the more earthy, brutal subject matter, while Tolkien is the archetypical High Fantasy due to the level of pristine 'Perfection' and attribution to magic and creatures of mystical nature being friendly to the protagonist. It's not technically a derogatory distinction anymore, just a difference in Genre.

Low Fantasy Heroes were tougher, grittier men then those of the later high fantasy books. Imagine if you will, Conan standing along side Aragorn, or Tarzan alongside Frodo, and you'll agree - likely after you're done laughing your ass off.

 

[Lone Star]

Did you watch Lost World, the series? It had jungle adventure, but also some "higher" fantasy, UFO's and "men" evolved from lizards, stuff like that, too, with the "shifting planes of reality" that kept the explorers on the Plateau.

For about the last year of it, the executive writers were the same couple who "assist" William Shatner with his Star Trek novels. They are Trekkers, I think, and some of the plots reflected that.

I've never seen the Lord of the Rings movies or read Tolkien's books. They just seemed too far out for me. Most of the fans on the Lost World boards that I'm on followed the show mainly because they liked the romance between Lord Roxton and Marguerite, but many also liked the sci-fi elements. I preferred the jungle adventure side of things, and that is reflected in my Fics. I do take care to write strong romance elements, as some 90% of my readers are women. But I especially appreciated that this show has been the ONLY one in recent memory that had armed adventurers who were not cops or police, carrying guns to defend themselves, even to hunt!

I am a big fan of Sir Henry Rider Haggard too, his "King Solomon's Mines". Haggard served as an officer in the Zulu War of 1879, and knew something of guns and of Africa. You might check out that book (any big library will have it; it is a classic) and see which guns the explorers in it used. Keep in mind that it was set in the early 1880's, though. I think the author chose the guns wisely, in view of the time period. He sure knew guns better than Arthur Conan Doyle!

Anyway, high or low, I like the adventure stuff better than I do the freakier fantasy sci-fi stories. I don't "do" horror stuff at all, unless you consider realistic detective novels to be horror. They are, for what some men do to their own kind is perhaps the most horrible behavior of all..and it's real. I don't need Stephen King to scare me.

Lone Star

 

[cane]

Since we are talking about Webleys, here are 3 of mine. I also have a MKIV in .455 that isn't pictured.

 

[VirgilCaine]

I am a big fan of Sir Henry Rider Haggard too, his "King Solomon's Mines". ...You might check out that book (any big library will have it; it is a classic)

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/King_Solomon's_Mines

I don't need Stephen King to scare me.

Uh, Stephen King isn't scary.