Theoretical home defense ammo

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RyanM

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I'm starting to look really hard at investing my own hard-earned cash into this idea.

How many of you would actually buy 12 gauge slug ammunition which:

*Exceeds 12" penetration in properly calibrated ballistic gelatin, bare and with 4 layer denim
*Does not penetrate beyond a single interior wall, constructed of 2 layers of 5/8" drywall
*Has terminal performance roughly in between a .45 ACP JHP which expands to .729", and a reduced recoil 12 gauge slug
*Has as much recoil as Winchester's featherlight target load (which is 7/8 oz. at 980 fps)
*Has a report that's the approximate volume of a .22 LR from a rifle
*All of the above have been verified by credible sources and independent testing

But,

*Can only be used in cylinder bore shotguns (I'm not entirely sure I could make one that works through choked shotguns, though I'm definitely going to try)
*Probably costs a lot, like $2-3 per round

I have a design which I'm 99% sure will meet all of the above, but it's looking like it'll cost me about $1500 or more just to create a proof of concept.

I think there'd be significant demand, if this crazy thing works, and if I can market it well (well, okay, marketing would be the only factor, but my conscience wouldn't allow me to sell a product that don't work as advertized, and that I wouldn't be willing to use myself), but what does the internet say?

Assume it's a year from now and this stuff has been tested by the Box o' Truth, our own JE223, and some other highly respected members here, and it lives up to my expectations. Would you buy it? Do you think other people would buy it?
 
Sure, if you could make something like that in enough bulk to get the cost down, sure. Not penetrate a single interior wall? Sounds like ninja ideas to me. Forget that little feature and you will probably be able to make better ammunition maybe cheaper.

And the .22 report might be a good thing to forget about as well.
 
How about a 6/8-7/8 oz foster style-slug with some #4 buck packed into the hollow base and behind the slug? It would be pretty awesome! Would not fit any of your criteria, but it would be fun as all get out.
 
Sure, if you could make something like that in enough bulk to get the cost down, sure. Not penetrate a single interior wall? Sounds like ninja ideas to me. Forget that little feature and you will probably be able to make better ammunition maybe cheaper.

And the .22 report might be a good thing to forget about as well.
Click to expand...

Well, not penetrating a single wall while still meeting FBI minimum penetration criteria is kind of the entire idea. The low noise thing is just a side benefit.

I really am 99% sure I could successfully create a round which really does acceptably penetrate living tissue, including bone, without going through even one wall. If that doesn't work out, I am 100% sure I could do a round which stops inside the second wall. But 1 wall is the goal.

Most of the cost would be the fact that it'd necessarily be small scale, until/unless I have a lot of money. The actual cost difference between this and a regular slug, in terms of materials, is about 30 cents.
 
Oh. Well then you've got a hell of a theory, I just don't know how a slug could reasonably be expected to break through bone and get to the delicious innards while not going through far softer and less rigid drywall, but going through tissue well which is softest and least rigid.

I'm not nay-saying, just that it sounds like it is an idea that better have good execution to take off. If the actual price difference is only 30 cents a slug, if you make a good product I'm sure you would eventually be getting enough orders to increase your scale, drop prices, and sell way more shells.
 
I don't care how much defensive ammo costs. It's my life and I don't mind paying for it.

I've never been overly concerned with the penetration of slugs. But I don't run them in my home defense shotgun. If however, you did make the slug you describe I would definitely run that in my shotgun.
 
I had thought the general consensus was, as NG VI said, in order to penetrate people, something has to be moving with enough force to penetrate drywall. I would definitely buy these though, were they demonstrated by a reputable testing facility to perform as advertised.
 
If your rounds were even $15/shell I wouldn't mind shelling out the $180 to fill my 500 with, IF they were what you are saying they can be. If it were just another 'wonderload,' then no I would not purchase them. While my life is worth every penny, those pennies can't be thrown away on BS.

Damian
 
I would buy, but I'm skeptical about the physics of the whole thing (then again, I never did well in physics). Sounds like saying you have a hammer that'll pound a big nail through a stiff board but won't hurt your hand if you miss the nail and smack your thumb.
Is it like a breaching slug? I don't recall how those did in jello but I think they break up pretty quick on walls (or bone).
 
I don't mean to burst your bubble, but people use number 4 buck for defense inside the house, not slugs.

Anything that won't penetrate two measly sheets of drywall probably is no good for defense. Well, I suppose you could get something to go so fast it desintegrates when hitting drywall, but you won't get that from a shotgun. At least I don't see how you could.
 
I use slugs for defense inside of the house. My interior walls are brick and plaster but I know of others who use slugs with normal dry wall also.

If I lived in a house where penetration was a problem then I would likely use such a load if it worked. I would want to see it work first though.
 
Probably but I wouldn't want to pay more than $20 and the idea would sound like it is to good to be true.
 
OK...
If it only got the 12" penetration, stopped in the second wall, and was light recoil, I would buy it. My wife has never shot a shotgun and that would be a good HD round for her. Me, Ill stick with something a little more manuverable (about 30 inches more manuverable as I have a 28 in barrel on it right now). I would definitely buy a couple of boxes for familiarization and one or two for HD. It would have to be vetted by a major lab though. I might, read that as small chance but there is one, accept the buick of truth.
 
I don't mean to burst your bubble, but people use number 4 buck for defense inside the house, not slugs.
Click to expand...

Maybe "people" who don't care about penetration in gelatin and human tissue. #4 usually underpenetrates in jello, but at the same time, it'll go through 6 layers of drywall, or 3 interior walls.

Personally, I believe you're responsible for every projectile that leaves the barrel, and that one big slug is a lot less likely to unintentionally injure someone than a bunch of buckshot. Especially people within your own house. One shot of #4 buckshot is like firing a 27 round (or more) burst from a .22 LR submachine gun. Would that really be less likely to unintentionally injure or kill someone, given that the first couple walls are almost no hinderance at all?

Anyway, this is not a frangible slug design. You'd have to shoot it at an axe head to get it to break up, and even that might not work.

The physics involved are actually pretty obvious in hindsight, but it is a very unconventional idea. I just want to try and get at least patent pending status before I post how it works.

Buckshot that penetrates over 12" in tissue but less than 2 boards of drywall would be interesting, but would actually be less effective than the slug, and also a lot more expensive.

--------------

Sounds like saying you have a hammer that'll pound a big nail through a stiff board but won't hurt your hand if you miss the nail and smack your thumb.
Click to expand...

Now I'll have to think about that one. If I can make that work, I'll be rich for sure! :D It's really just the exact opposite of my ammo.
 
I would buy, but I'm skeptical about the physics of the whole thing
Click to expand...

I'm VERY skeptical. I could see maybe doing it through flesh. But through bone? I know for a fact bone is harder than wall board. I've tested that theorem out myself.

Frankly, I don't see it happening. The fact of the matter is, anything that penetrates deeply enough to be a good defense round, is going to penetrate deeply through walls as well.
 
I have a unique situation. The one direction I would generally use my shotgun is in the direction of a high embankment for an overpass that would absorb the slug if it got that far. So if I used a slug it would be in that direction only.

But generally I want to use #1 shot for my primary HD loads. I would save the heavier stuff for outside, i.e. 00 Buck and slugs.
 
Well, I can buy five rounds of 00buck for about five bucks.
Little worry about neighbors and I think I can keep track of my wifes whereabouts.

I doubt I'd use anything else or pay much more.
 
I'm VERY skeptical. I could see maybe doing it through flesh. But through bone? I know for a fact bone is harder than wall board. I've tested that theorem out myself.
Click to expand...

Bone may be harder, but it's also much thinner and brittler, and sort of "spongy" on the inside. Dead bone is also much harder than living. Like your ribs flex and bend every time you breathe, but try bending some pork ribs.

Hit someone on the head with a hammer, and you could easily bust their head open. Hit a piece of wood with a hammer, and the best you could probably do is split it along the grain. Plywood or drywall would probably just get dented and bent, unless you hit it real hard.

Still, I do plan on testing this round with gelatin with pork ribs in front of it. If it'll punch through a dead rib and still penetrate 12+", living ribs should be no problem. Pretty sure it'll work fine.
 
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Maybe, but would want to see some reviews on it. I see if it can't penetrate drywall its not going to work for self defense.
 
Oh I dunno

Some of the new supermaterials have different properties like hardness depending, fo rexample, wether you try to move through them fast or slow.
Similar to water, if you slowly move through it it takes very little effort. But try to move fast and it really slwos you down.

So if this slug were a 'variable density' material, and was hard when struck by something hard (or when it strikes something hard, in this case), and soft when it hits something soft; or has a hard-soft phase change on impact... as in on initial impact it becomes very hard, then immediately 'breaks down' to a liquid again; it would penetrate but disperse right afte rthat.

It could work.

C-
 
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