OP
OP
Truth be told I’ve had better reliability with my Hi Point Carbine than my 9mm AR.
There aren't any bullets coming out of the end...
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WestKentucky
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It’s what works for the Glock Flock.Hard to tell whats going on with the gun when you have a black towel draped over it so nobody will see.
someguy2800
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A military contract? But whose military?
The national guard of Absurdistan.
I’ve shot several of their carbines. Pretty? No. Great triggers? Nope. Dependable? Very. Accurate? Well, we used to shoot bottle caps at 75 yards, iron sights, with cheap AE FMJ.
You don’t buy a HiPoint to shoot bench rest competitions. It’s a modest gun that puts decent ammo, into decent groups, at reasonable distances. Bedsides, anyone else know where you can buy a new 10mm carbine with an unconditional lifetime warranty for under $400?........ No? Me either.
You don’t buy a HiPoint to shoot bench rest competitions. It’s a modest gun that puts decent ammo, into decent groups, at reasonable distances. Bedsides, anyone else know where you can buy a new 10mm carbine with an unconditional lifetime warranty for under $400?........ No? Me either.
someguy2800
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Fine Figure of a Man
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A guy brought me a S&W Model 27 with 4 bullets stuck in the barrel, one protruding out the back to lock up the cylinder. He was reloading and forgot to fill five cases with powder. The next round had powder, but fortunately, wasn't fired!!! I had to remove the barrel to fix the gun and except for a slight bulge part way down, it was fine. Had to drill out the centers of the jacketed bullets, heat the barrel to the point that the lead poured out somewhat, then drive the loostened bullets out with a rod. I suggested that he send the gun to S&W to have them replace the barrel, but he continued to use it and it was accurate. DUH!
Gtscotty
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That particularly Hi-Point was more, by over half a pound.
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Ill go ahead and say it. That was plenty of good lead that could be tossed in the pot for the next batch of bullets. What a waste.
Varminterror
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I can't help but wonder how this happens, whenever I see bullets hard stacked together - blow back actions will vent the gas behind the bullet sure, but where in the world did the air in front of the subsequent bullets go? Never makes sense to me - I always expect to hear these things were pressed together to create internet spectacle. Gotta thing that's a pretty generous bore and poorly fit bullets if it's allowing the gas/air between the bullets to vent either backwards past the new one coming in, or forwards past the lodged bullets (which may partially explain why the bullets lodged in the first place, naturally).
Well you can laugh , if you want to, but if I had to procure the guns for an army, I'd want somebody like Hi-Point in my corner. So what if they have a slightly higher rate of failure? With high quality remediation protocols, a company rep armorer can be Johnny-on-the-spot with exchanges, field repairs, and upgrades.
Think thousands of the same models of guns. Now, as a company armorer, who would you rather deal with:
Somebody like FN, with their bitchy, balky, no-go return policy on expensive units,
or a Can-do attitude company like Hi-Point, who's not only going to keep a rep in the field, with their
terrific guarantee on repairs from any condition, but will also anticipate your breakdown and repair needs
on their much more cost effective units?
Varminterror, you raise a good point. I suspect that the air in front of the bullet is compressed, but the pressure behind the bullet is greater. Therefore the bullet goes to it's furthest point of free travel. As the gas is vented, behind the bullet, the air pressure in front of the bullet is not sufficient to un-stick the bullet, but it vents itself past the rifleing going around the bullet back to the chamber.
Good guess??? On second thouight maybe it's just magic?
Good guess??? On second thouight maybe it's just magic?
jmorris
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I have seen examples of this before the internet was a “thing” that said, I too have wondered this as well. Squibs won’t shove that much mass and a normal round with 100% obstruction will kaboom most all firearms, they don’t even “proof load” with 100% obstruction. Even less than 100% will do it, just look for the 300blk in 223 kaboom threads...
Varminterror
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Run this speculation out a bit. Before firing, the bore is full of air at 1 atmosphere, 0psi gauge, 14.7psi absolute. So let’s say that the first bullet stopped with the base an inch from the end of the barrel, we’ll bogey 2” from the breechface to the point where the bullet would seal in the leade, so a 16” barrel is only 13” once sealed by the stuck bullet at one end and the subsequent bullet at the other. Compression of gases is pretty straight forward. If the mass doesn’t change and temp doesn’t change, then the product of the pressure times the volume at the beginning and the end will be the same - so when you start with a fixed mass of air, as you compress it to infinitely small - as in closing the two bullets together in the bore - the pressure will reach infinitely high. Think of it this way - when the bullet reaches halfway down the bore, the internal pressure will double. Then halfway again, 3/4 way down the bore, it doubles again. Passing every “half way” mark will continue to double the pressure. 2x, 4x, 8x, 64, 128x, 256x, 512x, 1024x, 2048x, 4096x, 8192x, 16,384x, 32,768x, 65,536x, 131,072x... so starting at 14.7psia, you might imagine multiplying by 131,000 is a pretty high pressure - and the bullet hasn’t yet at that point made contact with the one in front of it... Naturally, these extreme pressures are greater than the burst pressure of the barrel, as well as greater than the max pressure created by the firing cartridge... so my question always remains, when we see these bullets stacked on end - where did that mass go? How was the mass released and the pressure relieved without bursting the barrel?
So what has either happened whenever we see barrels plugged with stacked bullets like this: the bullet managed to crush matter into nothing, which doesn’t happen, or the bore was loose enough to let the gas slip past the lodged bullet, or backwards past the subsequent bullet... which just shouldn’t happen, and isn’t a sign of strong design or good barrels.
someguy2800
Member
If I was a company armorer I wouldn't have to deal with either manufacturer because the army has a procurement chain that does that. I don't think you appreciate the durability and reliability required of a military rifle and how far off that map a hipoint is.
OP
OP
Most likely the pressure of the trapped gas causes outward expansion of the barrel in all directions ("hoop stress") and the air vents around the bullet and out the breech. Because it is apparently a very good grade of steel the elastic limit is not reached and the barrel contracts back around the bullet once the pressure is gone. It happens so quickly that the bullet doesn't have time to obturate or the pressure of the gas flowing around it is so great it is prevented from expanding laterally.
It would be interesting to know that actual diameter of those bullets and the bore. Maybe there was some permanent deflection and they are a little fatter than when they started?
Well, this is certainly not part of a normal proof firing guns, BUT:
Quite an number of institutions (e.g. different German polices) demand a "Geschossvorlagefähigkeit", meaning:
The barrel MUST NOT burst even if one bullet ("Geschoss") is stuck in the barrel and a second catridge is ingnited, sending its own bullet into the bullet-obstructed barrel.
The gun manufacturer has to prove this.
So every competitor for the official contract will have a gun model in the race that 100% WILL NOT kaboom with an obstructed barrel.
Whether they offer a special barrel for the competing guns/ agency models or the basic design of the gun itself is "geschossvorlagefähig" is probably up to the gun company themselves.
So your statement is only partially valid and should be reworded accordingly...although from the perspective of "better be safe than sorry" your statement gives the right heads up! for people to always check for barrel obstructions.
But technically it is not correct.
Y´all be safe!
Carsten
Varminterror
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That’s the problem - you have to pretend a more rigid material is stretching - without rupturing - before a more malleable material...
chicharrones
needs more ammo
So, the bullets give up diameter to let the air slip by? Maybe the barrel and bullets both give way a bit to allow leakage?
Varminterror
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This stretching of the barrel to vent gas around the bullet would not be because it is a very good grade, but rather it would have to be a very BAD grade for barrels - and quite likely the cause of the issue in the first place. Barrel steel should not be elastic beyond the deformation of copper and lead, so the fact it could stretch to purge otherwise destructive pressures would be the reason these bullets plugged in the first place. The barrel would have stretched and let the driving pressure pass the bullet instead of driving it out of the bore as it should.
Another statistical anomaly itches at my mind - unless the barrel IS poor and causes the bore to stretch and vent the driving pressure, causing the first plugged bullet, then we have TWO failure modes happening at once, which is exceedingly rare. This would have to mean a shooter experienced a squib AND a bad, elastic barrel simultaneously. It obviously happens, but the more simple answer is that someone fabricated these circumstances.
These things have to be venting the gas between in some way, which would mean either a longitudinal crack in the barrel or letting it pass beside one bullet or the other. My guess is venting backwards past the inbound bullet, since it would be a very tortuous path to see gas venting forward over 30+ bullets instead of backwards past one, but maybe it’s a bad barrel which allows a little of both.
I guess the point for me - when I see things like this, knowing what goes into the design and metallurgy of these things, I don’t think, “wow, what a great design.” I consider the actual circumstances which allowed it to happen, and the simplest answer is usually either it’s a fabricated hoax like The Virgin Mary on a piece of toast, or it’s a bad barrel which caused the initial failure.
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