There IS justice in the world

[Mr White]

From the Pittsburgh Post Gazette

FRANKLIN, Pa. -- A retired Venango County teacher has been acquitted of fatally shooting an unarmed man outside his home through a door.

A jury found 68-year-old Rodger Lore of Sandy Creek Township not guilty of voluntary and involuntary manslaughter in the September 2006 death of 28-year-old David Scott Kirkpatrick.

Mr. Lore testified he thought someone was trying to break into his home when Mr. Kirkpatrick was kicking and banging on the door.

Mr. Lore says he fired one warning shot through the door, and when the kicking wouldn't stop, fired again. The second shot was fatal.

Police say they don't know why Mr. Kirkpatrick was at Mr. Lore's home. Authorities say a high level of alcohol and traces of marijuana were found in Mr. Kirkpatrick's system.

 

[Titan6]

He shot some stupid drunk through his door and gets away with it? That's Justice? Okay...

 

[230RN]

Gee, have you ever dealt with an aggressive, stupid drunk?

Not effing fun.

May be sarcasm, but I don't see it.

 

[ojibweindian]

Sometimes, behaving stupidly has catastrophic consequences.

The moral of the story here is don't drink yourself silly, then pound on a strange door.

 

[Cosmoline]

It seems to have been borderline to shoot through the door, but weighing the facts and circumstances in such cases is exactly what juries are for.

 

[Stump Water]

If someone is outside my door kicking and banging on it and he/she doesn't stop when I tell him/her to, he/she is going to get shot. Drunk, high or stone-cold sober, doesn't matter. Call it what you like.

 

[fletcher]

Sometimes, behaving stupidly has catastrophic consequences.

+1. If you're going to smoke up and get drunk, at least stay in your own house. Don't go making trouble for other people who have no clue what's going, and all signs indicate is a break-in.

That being said, possible Rule #4 violation, don't know if he could see through anything to confirm his target.

 

[serrano]

I'd warn them and call and wait for the police - if the door gets kicked in before the police arrive someone is getting shot.

 

[Cosmoline]

If someone is outside my door kicking and banging on it and he/she doesn't stop when I tell him/her to, he/she is going to get shot.

There's an important difference between banging on the door and trying to break it down. You should not shoot someone for banging on your door. It could be the mailman. The last time someone banged on my door it was. I just waited for him to go away.

 

[bogie]

I'd really like to know more info...

For one thing, never shoot unless you can see your target, and know what's behind it, etc...

What if the guy kicking on the door had a sick kid in his arms, and desperately needed to use the telephone, and the ol' boy inside didn't bother to figure that out? Granted, that wasn't the case here, and what the odds say are more likely is that the younger guy was lost and buzzed, and probably thought his girlfriend or roomies had locked him out...

Some of you guys need to tone it down a little, and think. A gun is NOT an all purpose tool. It is possible this could have been solved with "You drunk fool! You live three doors down!"

 

[Gord]

Bet the geezer would have felt real good about himself if it had been some kid with the wrong address banging on what he thought was his friend's door.

Explain to me again how you can justify killing somebody when they are outside your home and pose no clear threat to you. Was the guy yelling "I'm gonna kill you"? Was he actually having any success in breaking the door down?

That's justice? Oookay then, sometimes you can't fault the anti-gun crowd for saying what they say about us.

Not trying to pass judgment on the case - just commenting on OP's wording.

 

[Stump Water]

There's an important difference between banging on the door and trying to break it down. You should not shoot someone for banging on your door.

I agree. But I perceive a difference between banging (knocking vigorously?) and "kicking and banging".

And I did say...

and he/she doesn't stop when I tell him/her to

 

[AKCOP]

Not enough information presented for me to second guess the jury. Those twelve citizens heard it all from both sides and then rendered a verdict. Justice was served.

 

[Thernlund]

I posted this some time ago about dealing with a drunk at my door. The way I remember it, a 68-year-old man wouldn't have a chance against the guy. Shooting him though the door would have absolutely been an option.


-T.

About 10 years ago my wife and I were living in a small one story apartment building. Her daughter (my step daughter) was visiting and sleeping on our couch. My wife likes to rise early so was up around 4am.

Well, she woke me around 4:30am frantically talking about someone trying to get in. Ok, I think. I'll sort this. Probably nothing. I grab the pistol and head for the front door. As I'm heading down the hall the front door is directly ahead of me. I noticed that the knob was turning and the door is crackling like it's being pushed by someone on the other side. That woke me up right away. I took aim at the door as I approached, finger off trigger. I didn't know what the hell was on the other side, and I wasn't going to chance it with a 4 year old girl sleeping not 10 feet away.

I put on a shoe and braced the door with my foot. I opened it about 3 inches and there was a guy in nothing but boxer shorts. BIG guy. Now I'm no shrimp. I lift and consider myself in good shape. But this guy was massive. He looks at me and says, "What are you doing in my apartment?!" Reeked of booze. I said something like, "This isn't your apartment. Get lost before you get shot." His eyes opened right up and he began to go on about how I was in his place and if I looked behind me I'd find a whole bunch of Willie Nelson CDs. Pfff. He starts shoving the door even more trying to get by me.

Now I'm trying to keep this as cool as possible so as to not wake the daughter sleeping on the couch. But this guy start losing his patience with me and begins pushing hard on the door. My foot was bracing it, but he's big, and the force is beginning to buckle carpet. A switch flipped in my head. Go time. My plan was to shove him back with my off hand, pull the door open and take aim. So I push him back hard and he goes off balance and stumbles a little. I barely start to open to door and he starts looking around and saying things like, "Oh man. Oh. Whoa.", and he walks off. I never even displayed my weapon.

About 5 minutes later there's a gentle little tap at the door. It's this guy again. He hands me his wallet and starts apologizing like crazy, saying he didn't know he had the wrong place, ect, ect. I looked at his drivers license and found out where he lived, gave him back his wallet, and pointed him in the right direction (about 5 apartments down).

Needless to say, I was now awake. Heh. The daughter slept through the whole thing.

Later on as we were leaving to go do family type stuff I saw the guys car. It was an older Jag, but pretty nice. It was parked very neatly in his covered spot. The rub is that it looked like someone dropped a 10 ton I beam on it. Flat as a pancake. Good grief.

 

[Cosmoline]

Facts and circumstances are the key. There's a big difference between a cookie cutter apt. complex and an isolated rural house. And a difference in the way a door can be pounded. There's also a difference between a little old man and a strong young one. All of these are factors for the jury to consider, and they did.

 

[Phil DeGraves]

"He shot some stupid drunk through his door and gets away with it? That's Justice?"
"Bet the geezer would have felt real good about himself if it had been some kid with the wrong address banging on what he thought was his friend's door."

Man, what a judgemental lot we are! First of all, he didn't know it was "some stupid drunk" until later. His perception is "someone is forcibly breaking into my house."
Secondly, HE FIRES A WARNING SHOT THROUGH THE DOOR! "...some kid with the wrong address banging on what he thought was his friend's door" would have been awfully stupid not to get the message that that WASN'T "his friend's door."
The trier of the fact must weigh what the perception of a "reasonable person" would have been AT THE TIME, not armchair quarterbacking later like you guys are doing. If the old man was "in fear of his life" and the jury applied the "reasonable person" test and concluded that he in fact, was reasonable to fear for his life under those circumstances, then deadly force is justified and yes, justice is served.

 

[Landor]

This is a rough call. Frame of mind is everything here. We talk about this stuff all the time, personally I would not shot someone banging on my door but if they got through the door, they are going down. The homeowner may not be as gun or tactically savvy as we like to think we are. He was scared, fear can make a man do things that might not seem right looking from the outside in but, it was his house, it was his right to defend it. What is really funny about this is if a gun killed the drunk then so did the alcohol and why is nobody trying to outlaw alcohol.

 

[Thernlund]

...why is nobody trying to outlaw alcohol.

Heeeyyy now. Careful there pilgrim.


-T.

 

[Phil DeGraves]

"Was the guy yelling "I'm gonna kill you"? Was he actually having any success in breaking the door down?"

Sounds like the typical "Well, if she didn't want to be raped she shouldn't have dressed like that" argument. What about the guy trying to break in? Aren't you going to hold him responsible for his actions? Since when does the potential victim have to ascertain the motives of the attacker before he is allowed to defend himself?

 

[ArfinGreebly]

Reasonable Person

Okay.

Getting silly here.

Just for a moment, let us imagine you are a

. . . 68-year-old Rodger Lore . . .

guy who's nearly seventy years old, and somebody is KICKING AND banging on your door.

You fire a shot through the door, since the guy doesn't respond to "STOP THAT" and keeps KICKING and banging on the door.

You are nearly seventy. You have fired a warning shot. The assault on your door continues unabated.

What do you do?

You're nearly SEVENTY years old. Whoever is KICKING on your door is, in all likelihood, quite a bit younger, is evidently angry, and is exhibiting violent KICKING behavior.

He comes through that door, you will, in all likelihood, not have a chance.

If he comes through, you're done.

What do you do?

Continue to yell at him? (My dad's voice at seventy wasn't all that strong.)

If he comes through, and all he wants to do is beat you up, if you're SEVENTY years old, that's likely gonna be fatal.

What do you do?

In his shoes? I must confess, even at a mere sixty-ish years of age, I would not be up to a violent confrontation. Arthritis and too much sitting have made fisticuffs simply a non-starter for me.

The guy won't leave. He continues to kick and bang. What kind of monster continues to kick and bang after hearing a freaking gunshot on the other side of the door, with an accompanying hole through said door? We're pretty much past the "wondering if this can end well" stage.

Say a prayer, line up the sights on the middle of the door, say another prayer, squeeze.

Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, in his shoes, would you have been able to do anything else?

 

[Deanimator]

Years ago in usenet, some Brit was on his high horse because some stinking drunk Scotsman got capped in Texas AFTER scaling a high fence around somebody's backyard, THEN actually kicking THROUGH the back door. The guy was told that if he got through the door he'd be shot. He did and he was. The Brit complained that the guy was drunk and shouldn't be held accountable for his immediate actions on the ground. I replied that if he couldn't drink and NOT try to break into people's homes in the middle of the night AFTER being warned that he'd be shot, he should STOP DRINKING. As you can imagine, this excruciatingly byzantine reasoning totally eluded the Brit.

Actions (especially excessive drinking) have consequences. Sometimes those consequences include having your MOS changed to "TRAP, BULLET". Either deal with your substance abuse issues or accept your involuntary reclassification. Those are your ONLY choices.

 

[Starship1st]

I do not know all of the facts: I can only asume he must of felt threatened and evidently if it were the postman or utility they would of identified himself?

I also wonder if a shot went through the door and the guy continued to bang on it one must figure that he is not going away?

Since I was not there I can not judge this one.

 

[3/325]

Actions (especially excessive drinking) have consequences. Sometimes those consequences include having your MOS changed to "TRAP, BULLET". Either deal with your substance abuse issues or accept your involuntary reclassification. Those are your ONLY choices.

Bingo!

I'm tired of listening to people make excuses for drunks, as if being drunk somehow makes you an innocent victim or, at the very least, somehow less dangerous. It is this same attitude that permits leniency toward a drunk driver who accidentally kills another motorist. "Aw, gee, he was drunk; he didn't realize what he was doing."

Actions have consequences. If you're going to knowingly introduce a substance into your body that alters your logic and reasoning abilities, then you can knowingly take responsibility for all the results. Your right to get ****faced and unpredictable DOES NOT TRUMP my right to safety.

 

[keeleon]

So if he were to have broken the door down, and beat the guy senseless and robbed him, he would have been fine, because "he wasn't in hi right mind". +1 on don't drink if you can't control your actions when you do. I don't drink, but my wife does, and she becomes very "difficult" when she does. It is always an emotional rollercoaster, and she always ends up apologizing for mean and stupid things she said, the next day. Apperently being drunk must be REALLY fun to constantly do that to yourself, and then repeat it. I wouldn't know, though.

 

[rocinante]

In a lot of these cases I have gained this pearl of wisdom. Don't screw with old dudes.