They're terrorists, not "freedom fighters"

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Wasn't the last big Muslim conqueror a Kurd? Seems like I heard that somewhere. Samarkand or some such name.

Salah ad-Din Yusuf Ibn Ayyub. aka, Saladin, The Righteousness of the Faith. He was a Kurd born in Tikrit, Iraq. He routinely kicked the heck out of the Crusaders whenever they provoked him. Raynald of Chatillon was the main aggitator, a plunderer and a pirate. Saladin cut off his head after the Conquest of Jerusalem. (In my opinion, he more than deserved it for murdering civilian caravans on Hajj.)

Generally, Saladin was a very merciful fellow. He usually allowed Christian soldiers and citizens to leave peacefully after he defeated them. Saladin and King Richard got along very well, considering they were enemies. Saladin sent his personal physician when Richard was wounded.

It's kinda amusing that the greatest Muslim warrior was a Kurd. Few if any Muslim sects like the Kurds, and harass them whenever possible.
 
I was doing some meditations, pondering some stuff. Ironically enough, sitting on a very large and ornate silk rug given to me by some Kurds. Photo, as I'm rather proud of that rug.

The US has treated the Kurds not very well until recently. Except for shortly after the first Iraqi War, we never really lied to them. Just led them along, and then never delivered on our promises/suggestions. Regardless, as the lack of news on Kurdish territory in Iraq speaks volumes. There is a lot of disagreement between different groups of Kurds, which is why they haven't carved out an actual Kurdistan. It's possible another Saladin will pop up to unite the tribes. It would behoove us to be on good terms with such a person if he pops up.

Again, from conversations with some Kurdish militants, they indeed want to keep a low profile and build up their strength. They know it's pointless to fight the Americans at this point, as the US Army is not currently at war with them. "Why cause a war if you don't need one" is pretty much the Kurdish thinking. As long as we don't do something really stupid, the Kurds will leave us alone.

Sayyid al-Sadr is another 'interesting' character in Iraq. He's sort of a Shiite cleric. The US and the UK wanted al-Khoei (since murdered) to be the prominent leader in the Shi'a community. The two didn't get along. al Sadr's main argument against al Khoei is over a Ba'athist in charge of Imam Ali Mosque, which is considered a very sacred Shi'a site. There is some dispute over who murdered al Khoei, CPA says al Sadr did it, al Khoei's followers think former Ba'athists are responsible. The CPA shut down al Sadr's newspaper (Al Hawza) for publishing "anti-American propaganda".

al Sadr has officially disbanded his militia and joined the political process in a truce last June. Couple months later, US forces attempted to arrest him (during a truce, mind you). His supporters holed up in Najaf until a cease fire was renegotated by the most powerful cleric in Iraq, Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani. Prime Minister Iyad Allawi broke off negotations in order to try to militarily defeat al Sadr, who has been gaining popularity. Remember the giant push into Sahr City last October 2004? Essentially, it was Prime Minister Allawi pulling a power game, using US forces as his muscle.

al Sahr is probably the biggest 'legitimate' (ie, non-insurgent) threat to US control of Iraq. He wants Iraq to be a theocracy. He's not as widely respected or supported as Ayatollah al Sistani, but he's the most widely respected power not directly friendly to the US. Wiping him out would basically destroy the US's credibility that the US intends to turn Iraq into a democracy. To be fair, he has mostly disbanded his militia and publically asked his supporters to work within the system instead of attacking US forces.


The so-called "insurgents" are religious madmen. They have no real political platform and have no coherent objection to the current government other than the fact that it's supported by "infidels." Killing everyone who isn't Muslim is not a legitimate or even coherent political agenda. It's simply insanity, like the Khmer Rouge plan to return to the "year zero." They aren't mad because we ousted their leaders. They're mad because we belong to the wrong faith. Most Iraqis just want to get on with their lives. But there is a cadre of animals who want only more and more blood. These people cannot be reasoned with or talked down. They must simply be slaughtered like pigs.

Erm, I respectfully disagree. Kinda. There is no one group that makes up all the insurgents. Shiite militants like al Sadr make up one kind. Sunni former Ba'athists make up another. Relatively unorganized Iraqi's pissed at American forces for various reasons make up another. Foreign wahabbis make up another.

I assume you're describing the Wahabbis, which are the religious wackos. "Al Qaeda" (that is, bin Laden's branch of Wahabbism) is not likely operating in Iraq in large numbers. The Wahabbis are, however. They're killing a lot more Muslims than Americans, by the way. For every one American they've ever killed, they've killed at least ten Muslims.

If I may be blunt, Cosmoline, I think you're oversimplifying things. Yea, the Wahabbis 'foot soldiers' aren't likely to surrender and need to be killed roughly in the manner you described. However, blowing away their foot soldiers will only slow down their movement, not stop it. Common foot soldiers can be and are easily replaced. To make an analogy, it's like cutting limbs off a tree. Sure, it hurts the tree but doesn't kill it.

In order to strike the roots, one would have to destroy the popularity and any legitimacy of Wahabbism. To basically make people not want to subscribe to Wahabbism. How to accomplish this? Dealing with Saudi Arabia, which is the largest supporter of Wahabbism. Fostering resistance movements in Iran. (NOT invading. Invading Iran would be a bad move.) Countering Wahabbi religious indoctrination schools with more moderate schools. Going after their funding. Psychological warfare and propaganda. Basically, dozens of strategies to weaken their core and make them destroy themselves.

Just my opinion.
 
The second best way to stop terrorism is to give the terrorists F16 fighters, Apache helicopters, and M1 tanks.

If you want them to fight conventionally, give them conventional weapons.
 
What am I?

Since the 23rd of June, IF I'D had to rethink my position on suicide bombing, WOULD THAT make me a terrorist or a freedom fighter?

rr
 
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The distinction is real simple. A freedom fighter restricts their targeting to political amd military targets, with heavy enphasis on political. Terrorists kill anything to make a media statement.
 
Bruce, by your definition, dropping the bomb on Hiroshima was a terrorist act. We did not restrict the bomb to political or military targets, and we certainly wanted to make a statement to the Japanese.

I would propose that a "terrorist" is anyone the US government says.

I am not sticking up for the insurgents in Iraq, or terrorists anywhere. I am just saying that we decide who is, and is not a terrorist.

When our government support Bin Laden's efforts to fight the Russians in Afghanistan in the 80's, he was a freedom fighter. Now that he is fighting us, he is a terrrorist. His philosophy really hasn't changed.

Is there any doubt that the Minute Men of 1776 would be labeled "domestic terrorists" if they existed today?
 
A buddy called and said that my post earlier sounded like I'd taken up suicide bombing. After we got done laughing, he said that I'll probably hae the feds in hear looking for my suicide belt.

Dumb me. I didn't know you had to wear a belt to be a career suicide bomber. Just goes to show you that my ex-wife was right when she said I had the fashion awareness of a bug.

===============
About A-bombs and terrorists. At least we've tried to get our bombs to be more target specific rather that "shot gun."

It was a fact that not too long ago--Civil War times--people would go out with picnic baskets to watch the war on nice days. That sure beats TV.

rr
 
Bruce, by your definition, dropping the bomb on Hiroshima was a terrorist act. We did not restrict the bomb to political or military targets, and we certainly wanted to make a statement to the Japanese.
It was a city of military value. The nature of war in that time included far far more collateral damage than we are (or should be) now willing to inflict, but it's still collateral damage.

When our government support Bin Laden's efforts to fight the Russians in Afghanistan in the 80's, he was a freedom fighter. Now that he is fighting us, he is a terrrorist. His philosophy really hasn't changed.
When Russia invaded Afghanistan to expand its empire, anyone fighting to get them out was a freedom fighter (subject to the rather obvious exception that the Afghani government didn't exactly allow a whole lot of freedom). When planes flew into buildings and killed 3000 civilians with no military target, that's terrorism.
 
When Russia invaded Afghanistan to expand its empire, anyone fighting to get them out was a freedom fighter (subject to the rather obvious exception that the Afghani government didn't exactly allow a whole lot of freedom). When planes flew into buildings and killed 3000 civilians with no military target, that's terrorism.

In Afghanistan during the Russian invasion, Bin Laden was what we would today call a "foreign fighter". How was he different from Syrians that have slipped across the Iraqi border to wage war as part of the insurgency in Iraq?

Bin Laden was not a freedom fighter when he was fighting the Russians. Bin Laden was not fighting for freedom. His actions help create the most anti-freedom government in the world (the Taliban). He was fighting off what he perceived to be a foreign invasion of infidels. It was a religous war for him, not one concerned with freedom.

It was a city of military value. The nature of war in that time included far far more collateral damage than we are (or should be) now willing to inflict, but it's still collateral damage.

Hiroshima had military value, no doubt. However, Tokyo had more military value, and we chose not to nuke it. The Japanese did not capitulate because we destroyed the military value of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. They capitulated because of the "shock and awe" ofthe nuclear attack. More than military or industrial damage, the "terror" value of nuclear weapons is what ended WWII. I am not trying at all to say nuking Japan was terrorism. Quite the contrary in fact. What I am doing here is disagreeing with the definition proposed by BruceH. I think his definition of terrorist is too broad and non-specific.
 
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I think...

...that we didn't go after Tokyo because we'd pretty much toasted it already and the two Nuke targets were pristine. I think they'd been left off the fire bomb list to increase the before and after picture when the bomb finally got invented.

We did kill a lot more people in the fire aids, but that was multi-ship, multi-night raids.

rr
 
I have recently returned to the US after spending 14 months in Iraq.

Most of the tactics the "insurgents" are using do not really hurt the US, they hurt the Iraqi people. Blowing up the oil pipelines, IP's and ING's don't hurt the US, they hurt other Iraqis. The Iraqi people are getting tired of the "insurgents" blowing up or killing other Iraqis. The insurgents do not care about the Iraqi people or what the Iraqi people want. Based on thier tactics I would definitely call them terrorists.
 
In Afghanistan during the Russian invasion, Bin Laden was what we would today call a "foreign fighter". How was he different from Syrians that have slipped across the Iraqi border to wage war as part of the insurgency in Iraq?

Bin Laden was not a freedom fighter when he was fighting the Russians. Bin Laden was not fighting for freedom.
I realize that freedom was not his motivation. But he was fighting an enemy that had invaded the country in order to subjugate it. (Spare me the Iraq comparisons, y'all, we got in and gave it back as soon as we could. The Soviets had no such plans.) That makes him a "freedom fighter" by the loose definition I'm using.

The Syrians fighting in Iraq are now fighting an Iraqi government freely elected by Iraqis. Big difference.
 
Doc, I think we have only given Iraq back to the Iraqis in a very superficial way. As long as our troops are propping up a puppet government (not that there is anything wrong with that), we really haven't given anything back, I see no signs of that changing anytime soon, given Bush's recent speech on the matter.
 
I think we have only given Iraq back to the Iraqis in a very superficial way. As long as our troops are propping up a puppet government (not that there is anything wrong with that), we really haven't given anything back,
Puppet government being that which the Iraqis elected? "Superficial" being that they now control their own affairs and we provide security while training them to take that over as well? Sorry, no dice.

Yes, it'll be a while. That's how these things work.
 
Doc, I think we just see things differently regarding the Iraqi government. First, the Iraqis have not really elected a government, just interim leaders. They still have not drafted a constitution.

I think their interim leaders are exactly who we wanted them to be. I think their constitution will read exactly what we want it to read. There is no way our government is going to wage this war, and then actually let the Iraqis pick who they want. I think they will get to make a choice, but it will be from our list of pre-approved candidates.

Democracy does not work to our advantage in the mid-east. The Iranians are a "democracy". They just elected a new leader. He won with 61% of the vote. This election was by all measures legitimate, not the sham kind of thing that Saddam used to have. Their newly elected leader is a fundamentalist muslim who may have participated in the US Embassy hostage incident in the 70s.

He is exactly the kind of person who we don't want in charge of Iraq, regardless of how the Iraqis vote.

We are doing a lot more over there than "providing security". We are holding the whole country together right now.
 
"First, the Iraqis have not really elected a government, just interim leaders. They still have not drafted a constitution. "

Sortta like the gov't our the first eight [I think] American presidents presided over. And now I can't think of the names of any of them. >>Google>>Continental Congress>> and out come the answers.

Would we have been better off to just let Saddam have Quait [sp?] buy oil from him much like the oil-for-food crowd did? Let these rats murder their own people and whatever. If the people finally can throw these dictators off by themselves, they probably would appreciate the freedom they themselves created more than that which is given to them with a minimum of pain and a lot of the trial and error we went thru with the Articles before the Constitution.

Beats me. I've heard this argued.

If someone in 1776 had got off his boat and booted the Brits out and set up the gov't we started with, we might well have gone out of business years ago. The "I don't have a nickle in it" syndronme is deadly. That syndrome is what makes the loony left possible and it's why they are mad about the war and our reaction to 9/11. A lot of people are waking up to the fact that they do "have a nickle in it" and are getting interested. At least for a short time.

rr
 
Sigh... raven I think you are missing the point...

My point was that the Iraqis are not independent at this time. They do not have a constitution. They have interim leaders that were chosen from a list of people that we helped put on the ballot. We are the power that is really in control.

This means that we still have a lot of political and military influence in Iraq, and that they are not able to stand as a unified nation right now without us.

I realize it takes time to create a constitution and new government. My point was that until that happens, the US will still maintain a lot of control over what happens in Iraq, and probably will even after for a while. I am not blaming them for it taking a while to put together their government. The wheels of bureaucracy turn slowly. But until they get something put together, its a stretch to say our influence their has diminished.

I am not sure you know what you are talking about when you are referring to the first 8 presidents and the Continental Congress. I think you may be extremely confused. No president, let alone eight of them, ever presided over the Contintental Congress. What are you talking about?

The Continental Congress was disbanded and replaced with the US Congress in 1788 or 1789 (can't remember which off the top of my head). George Washington took office in 1789. The Continental Congress was gone by this time.

Sortta like the gov't our the first eight [I think] American presidents presided over. And now I can't think of the names of any of them. >>Google>>Continental Congress>> and out come the answers.

What do you mean?
 
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Would we have been better off to just let Saddam have Quait [sp?] buy oil from him much like the oil-for-food crowd did? Let these rats murder their own people and whatever. If the people finally can throw these dictators off by themselves, they probably would appreciate the freedom they themselves created more than that which is given to them with a minimum of pain and a lot of the trial and error we went thru with the Articles before the Constitution.

Kuwait.


"If the people do not rise up and take freedom for themselves, they do not deserve it nor will they keep it." - my old counterinsurgency instructor
 
"My point was that until that happens, the US will still maintain a lot of control over what happens in Iraq, and probably will even after for a while."

Yes. That is for sure and that is what keeps the little worry light lit in the back of my mind. And the line the next poster said about not taking control and earning freedom for them selves.

I'll do a bit of googling later tonight when I have time and come up with the presidents of the CC. I remember some old trivial pursuit question or something. "Who was the first American president?" Can't remember. Have CRS disease. Can't Remember Sh*t.

rr
 
Oh yeah, they're "freedom fighters" all right. Ummm, yeah, that's it.

http://www.terradaily.com/2005/050621125924.cnk4zkg8.html
West Baghdad parched after insurgents hit water supply
BAGHDAD (AFP) Jun 21, 2005
The west of the Iraqi capital suffered from severe water shortages Tuesday amid searing summer temperatures following an attack against a water purification station.

The station in the northern suburb of Taji was "sabotaged by terrorists, affecting the distribution of drinking water on the west bank of the Tigris river which runs through the capital, a government statement said.

An official from the Baghdad water company who wished to remain anonymous said the station had been hit by anti-tank rockets late Saturday and that one million people had been left without water as temperatures climbed to 41 degrees (almost 106 F).

"This attack has caused lots of problems for Baghdad residents, especially for innocent children and the elderly who need a lot of water at this time of year," the statement said.

Baghdad, which has around 6.5 million inhabitants, faces repeated water shortages owing to obsolete installations.

While around 97 percent of homes and businesses are hooked up to the city's water system, only 63 percent receive water on a regular basis, according to UN figures.

"The aim of this attack is to make Iraqis' lives more difficult," the government said.

Repairs had begun on Sunday and normal supplies were expected to resume on Wednesday.

At the capital's Yarmuk hospital, tanker trucks helped ensure an adequate supply of water.

In the affected neighborhoods, firetrucks distributed water but warned residents not to drink it, while many crossed the Tigris to stay with friends or relatives.

Yup, they sure are.
 
When Russia invaded Afghanistan to expand its empire

The Russians were invited in by the Afghan government.

Oh yeah, they're "freedom fighters" all right. Ummm, yeah, that's it.

Who precisely are you quoting? Who refers to the Iraqi insurgents as "freedom fighters"?
 
You might want to read the following: http://www.commentarymagazine.com/article.asp?aid=12001023_1

From the above, "As Fouad Ajami wrote in the Wall Street Journal on May 16, upon returning from a visit to the region:

The insurgents will do what they are good at. But no one really believes that those dispensers of death can turn back the clock. . . . By a twist of fate, the one Arab country that had seemed ever marked for brutality and sorrow now stands poised on the frontier of a new political world.

The elections’ effect on the wider Arab world was likewise both immediate and profound. Millions of Arabs watched on television as Iraqis exercised their political rights, and were moved to ask the obvious question: why are Iraqis the only Arabs voting in free elections—and doing so, moreover, under American aegis and protection? The rest is so well known as barely to merit repeating. The Beirut spring. Syria’s withdrawal from Lebanon. Open demonstrations and the beginnings of political competition in Egypt. Women’s suffrage in Kuwait. Small but significant steps toward democratization in the Gulf. Bashar Assad’s declared intent to legalize political parties in Syria, purge the ruling Baath party, sponsor free municipal elections in 2007, and move toward a market economy."

Gee, maybe people really want to be free. Imagine that.

Geoff
Who notes the alternatives to mideast democracy are, extermination, colonization or reservation (as in the last time the USofA was confronted with violent tribal groups.
 
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