Thinking about Competing

[brisendines]

Hey guys-
Just joined, been a lurker for a while, but I saw the competitive shooting section, and I have been thinking about starting to compete. I live in east Denver, Colorado, and I was wondering what is the most popular type of event, and approximately how many rounds are used during the competition. I reload, so its more economical, but I need a lot of practise. I know they have many classes, but I don't know what it takes to be competitive in a class. I am mainly looking at IDPA and IPSC, but my father in law would love to join me if the competitions aren't held on Sunday. I look forward to all of your advise! Thanks in advance!

 

[Riss]

IPSC requires nothing special but a gun, 3 or more mags, holders and lots of practice. If you join the arms race a speed holster, speed mag holders etc are needed. And a good belt to hang your stuff on. My local matches are between 120 and 160 rounds. Not counting any stages that might need to be reshot for whatever reason. 2 or 3 times that in practice ammo, if you have time to shoot it and you have a new hobby. Also depends on what kind of gun you want to use. 1911, Glock, an open gun that is ported with optics. 9mm or a major caliber, either 40 or 45. Rules book is on uspsa.org website. It lists all the stuff you need to know for the different classes. I suggest shooting major (40 or 45) the scoring zone is slightly larger in the middle where it counts. The most important thing you need is a reliable gun. One that is finicky will not do. A box stock Glock will do just fine. 9mm for Production class, 40 or 45 for Limited or Limited 10. A nice holster, without thumb break or latch will do fine. Blackhawk, without the Serpa lock is great, as are the Uncle Mikes or Fobus. All can be found for under $40 and are pretty quick without going the whole race gun holster route.

 

[eerw]

in the denver area there is USPSA, IDPA, 3 gun, NRA action and steel matches.

for a complete list..check out ECOUSPSA.com
it lists all the matches along the front range and list contact information for the different clubs..

let us know what help you need to get started..look forward to see you out there.

 

[brisendines]

Thank you to both of you- I need to pick up an OWB holster anyhow, but was worried about a kydex holster messing up the finish on my 1911. What would you think of using a Glock 30? Both have standard sights. Probably going to get Big Dot XS sights on the glock...

 

[eerw]

as much fun as it is...shoot whatever get you out there soonest..

both kydex and leather will wear the finish of any gun..unless hardchromed, ion bond or stainless..

I look at it as testimony to use..which is a good thing to me..


also the colorado ar15 site is a good source for match information in the area..USPSA, IDPA and 3 gun

 

[Sam1911]

First thing is to determine what's popular and/or available in your area. Some places (like here in PA) are blessed with pretty active communities (with a lot of cross-over) involved in both the "Practical-Tactical" (IDPA) version of the game and the "Run-and-Gun" (IPSC/USPSA) version.

If you are just starting out and don't have either equipment nor preferences already built up, either game will be a great place to start. Try here for IDPA info: http://www.coloradoshooting.org/fridpa.htm. Or here: http://www.uspsa1.org/ to locate USPSA (IPSC) events.

If you own a centerfire handgun that could reasonable be called "defensive", there's a REAL good chance that either sport will have a division into which it would fit. Don't go out and buy anything (including holsters and other gear) until you've gotten your head around some of the equipment rules and tips-and-tricks of whichever sport you think you'll land in.

If at ALL possible, contact the head honcho of the IDPA or USPSA club closest to you and find out when their home crew meets for practices. Visit them on some practice nights and ask to watch what they do and try your hand at it. They can take a look at your gun, holster, mag pouches, etc. and give you some suggestions if you need to tune up your kit. And you'll get the chance to get some of the basics techniques, rules, and terminology down pat before you step up to the starting line "for real" -- and you can meet some folks and get a bit of a support crew to help you through your first match(es). If you just CAN'T get any prior experience/exposure, just show up to a match. Everyone likes to see new shooters getting involved and they'll probably offer to have someone walk you through it.

Now for the gross generalizations:
IN GENERAL, IDPA is going to be easier to get involved in with equipment you probably already have -- and equipment you might use on the street. (Standard "concealment" holsters, basic & secure mag pouches...just a couple, no huge quantities of magazines, etc., street clothes, athletic shoes or hikers, and a concealment vest.)
IN GENERAL, USPSA/IPSC is going to encourage you to purchase more specialized equipment to shave as many thousandths of a second as you can from your times. (Skeletonized rail holsters, vast arrays of mag pouches, lots and LOTS of magazines, baseball cleats, knee pads, etc.)
IN GENERAL, you get to shoot more in USPSA/IPSC. Expect round counts per stage to be averaging at 20 or more, with probably 150-250 rounds expended per match. And you'll load up all the mags you can carry with lots of rounds and reload as often and wherever you want.
IN GENERAL, you'll shoot less in IDPA (round counts per string of fire are limited to 18, but there will be occasional courses of fire as short at 6. And, every once in a while there will be a crazy ONE SHOT stage!) Expect to shoot between 75 and 125 rounds in an average club match (5-7 stages).
IN GENERAL, USPSA/IPSC stages are wide-open, run-and-gun affairs where you're presented with a sea of targets and you blast them as you see them -- and that's about it.
IN GENERAL, IDPA stages will require a bit of strategy because of the emphasis on using cover and because your ammo and your reloads have some limitations designed to simulate what, in theory, might happen in real life. You can't run wantonly through rooms full of targets and pick them off at your leisure. You'll have to engage them in logical sequences determined by the criterion of minimizing your exposure to return fire.

Anyway, a dozen guys will now jump into the discussion to point out lots of ways I've oversimplified the distinctions, or to point out how USPSA is fine tactical training ... and how IDPA isn't good tactical training, etc., etc....etc.

My point is, go, get involved and find out how much fun IDPA and/or USPSA are! Either one will do to get your feet wet. If you have a choice between local clubs that run both, look over the mission statements of both organizations and their respective match styles and choose which ever one tickles your fancy.

When you do finally get some trigger time remember that the only way you're going to impress anyone is by how SAFE you are!

Have fun and be safe!

-Sam

 

[1SOW]

One other thing you might check into is a local "League" shoot.
I shoot in a USPSA league that shoots/competes every weekend.
You don't need to join the national USPSA and it's a great place to learn the ropes. It serves as an introduction to USPSA. I warn you, it's habit forming.
Experienced USPSA shooters will show you what you need to know to be safe and competitive in this great shooting sport.

 

[brisendines]

Well, I spoke with a friend who just got his first pistol, and he may be interested in joining with me. The local league sounds great. I am not really too interested in scores, although I wouldn't cry if I beat someone. I thought about picking up another tactical pistol class, but I figure whats better training than competing, and talking with all of the old farts about techniques! Save the money for lead and primers.

 

[brisendines]

What would be good sights to get for this type of shooting? I was thinking possibly Big Dot XS sights, but they look very large and I would think they block a lot of sight picture. The guy at my gun store uses the trijicon sights, but blacks out the two rear sights with a sharpie.

 

[Jim Watson]

The sights that come on the gun are perfectly fine. The XS sight is a close range sight for most people, the experts who do the fancy demos notwithstanding.

 

[brisendines]

I will be using my carry gun, so I need to put night sights on it anyhow.

 

[Hoser]

4th Saturday there are IPSC matches in Aurora. Come find eerw and myself.

 

[Sam1911]

What would be good sights to get for this type of shooting?

Two answers that will contradict one another:

1) Any front sight that is plainly and instantly visible against a variety of backgrounds will do. A lot of guys really like the fiber optic front sights like those from Dawson precision, Hi Viz, Speed Shooters, etc. They don't do anything in very dark conditions, but glow like a stop sign with some light on them. Anything that acts as a beacon to help you acquire that front sight faster is going to speed you up. Rear sights really don't matter as long as the rear notch is wide enough for you to make the (very) occasional long-range accuracy shot.

2) For Pete's sake don't go changing stuff before you even start shooting! You'll waste a lot more money by jumping into a long list (or even a short one) of "GOTTA haves" before you really have any experience with the game. As long as the front sight on your gun is reasonably visible, go shoot it! When you've got a season or so of regular practice and some competition under your belt, then start making the changes that your experience proves to you that you need.

Good luck!

-Sam

 

[brisendines]

I've been shooting for about 2 years, but I just recently acquired the gun I may be using... the 1911 has great sights on it, however they are not night sights or fast sights.


Hoser- What day would that make competition? As in Dec 27? I am very interested, but may be out of the area this go round. What is the name of the range there? Is it the Aurora Gun Club?

 

[Lucky Strike]

I'm just getting into USPSA and also use my carry gun (XDsc), for sights I have Heinie Straight 8's....good self defense night sight and they worked just fine when doing the competition

 

[brisendines]

Those look pretty good, but I wonder how bright they are at night? They look to be very accurate sights, but maybe not as fast...

 

[ultradoc]

I have done it and it's a blast. Have fun!

 

[Lucky Strike]

"Those look pretty good, but I wonder how bright they are at night? They look to be very accurate sights, but maybe not as fast..."

They're tritium sights so they glow just as bright as any other night sight (I also have the BigDot sights on a revolver) that uses tritium. The vertical alignment of the dots is supposedly quicker for the human eye/brain to get on target then a 3 dot setup which is one of the reasons i bought them.

 

[brisendines]

I wish I had a way to see these things in person. I may make a trip this weekend to a gun shop. What all is involved in steel shooting? It looks like the shooter is stationary the entire time?

 

[VegasOPM]

IDPA, USPSA, Steel Challenge- they are all a blast. It really doesn't matter which one you try first, just try one.
Some Notes:
1. You will not do very well the first time out- nobody does, so don't sweat it.
2. Your equipment will not be optimal the first time out- nobody's is, so don't sweat it. Use what you have and you will decide what you need after a few matches.
3. Ask a bunch of questions and let the match director know that you are new. You will get squadded with more experienced shooters and you will get more help that way.
4. Don't worry about speed, it will come with time. Get your hits, no matter how slow you have to go.
5. If you stick with it, you will become a MUCH better shooter than you were before.
6. Everybody out there- even the Grandmaster level shooters- were exactly where you are now at one time. Trust me, when you see a GM shoot, you will be impressed.

 

[Sunray]

None of IPSC, IDPA or USPSA are training for anything. They're shooting games and nothing else. Great fun though. Mind you, any kind of competitive shooting is great fun. Lots of great people too.
The number of rounds depends on the type of competition. There are all kinds of competitive shooting disciplines. From Bullseye to metallic silhouettes, plus the "action shooting" games. Each with a different course of fire and requiring different amounts of ammo. Always take more than the minimum.
Go to as many matches of as many different types as you can until you find the one you and your buddy and father in law like best. Don't be afraid to go alone if you have to either. Most shooters will help you, including letting you try their firearms.
"...looks like the shooter is stationary the entire time?..." Not always. Steel plates of assorted sizes and shapes, shot at assorted distances.

 

[Lucky Strike]

while i agree that they're not gonna make it so you can go in SWAT style and clear a room i disagree that they offer no training.

Anytime you're getting trigger time means some training IMO. Seems like getting a quick sight alignment and trigger control on double taps would be skills that are getting polished in gun games.

 

[VegasOPM]

Another blurb about the benefits of competition. I have met more of the nicest, friendliest and interesting people while in a match. The class of folks is top notch to be sure.

 

[Sunray]

"...have met more of the nicest..." Absolutely. It doesn't just apply to handgun competition either. Most shoorters will bend over backwards to help a new shooter. Even the rectal orifi are better in the shooting world.
"...offer no training..." The real world is a long way from shooting games. There's no beep to tell you when to start shooting.

 

[Sam1911]

"...offer no training..." The real world is a long way from shooting games. There's no beep to tell you when to start shooting.

Yeah? So what? Every tactical training program anywhere is going to have some indicator of when the range is "hot". Even dynamic, force-on-force, scenarios are going to start you out in a mindset of heightened readiness that is significantly greater than your normal "on-the-street" level (unless you are one jittery son-of-a-gun!). That cannot be eliminated. So the argument here holds no water.

As a very wise contributor (oh, that was me ) once said:

...to look out over hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of average Joes and Janes who; 1) have hunted for years but now think that maybe they want to get their CCW and buy a pistol, or 2) who've lived without exposure to guns and just woke up to the realities of a dangerous world, or 3) who are part of that 99% of both the police and the military that draws a gun about twice a year to qualify on a static range, or 4) is a pretty sold-out "gunny" type who owns a modest, but very clean, collection of firearms and hits the range once a month or so to try as best as he can figure out (probably on his own) how to put 50 holes somewhere in a silhouette target at 20 yds over the course of an hour and a couple of coffee breaks -- I say, to look at these folks and say, "IDPA & USPSA style shooting will get you KILLED!" is just insulting and ludicrous.

[SNIP]

... the practice in gun-handling, worn-in safety procedures, sight alignment and trigger control under stress, unconscious manipulation of the gun's controls and the reload, etc., etc., can ONLY help. And they can make a HUGE difference. And the encouragement and coaching of a group of accomplished shooters (especially those with a "practical" mindset as well as the competitive view) will propel you far further, far faster, than you can ever hope to get on your own.

Most confrontations where a gun is used involve a very few "opponents" and, if shots are fired at all, usually it's less than three or four rounds. For the vast majority of us, having a gun with us, and being generally proficient in its use, and able to make center-of-mass hits almost unconsciously under stress, will increase our "win" rate by 100x. This is where the "gun games" shine as a strong training aid. They get people out shooting -- a lot -- and shooting while moving, trying to find and use cover (sometimes), facing an endless variety of target presentations, etc. For most folks, the alternative is either plinking at bulls-eyes and tin cans or sitting on the couch watching Starsky & Hutch re-runs.

Where, OH WHERE, are the folks who are vehemently arguing that IDPA/USPSA will prepare you for CQB, house-clearing, or the legal issues of the use of deadly force? This is such a red herring. I've never met a shooter at an IDPA match who thought he was ready to take on the world. Can we finally let that null argument die?

-Sam