Thinking about skipping the shotgun for self-defense

[Hammer059]

So I've been thinking about this lately, and for ME I just don't see a need for a 12 gauge for SD. I'll go ahead and list my reasons, please let me know if you think I'm missing something here...


In home use:

-I'll always use a handgun in my home for SD. I can open a door, turn on lights, call 911, hold a flashlight, maneuver around corners quicker, and still retain the ability to defend myself and family with a pistol. Not to mention I'll have significantly higher capacity and faster follow up shots.

Outdoor property/"other" uses

-I'm from Kansas, and will be moving back there in the next few years. My family has land there, about 340 acres, and I spend lots of time there. I would certainly be carrying a rifle around the "farm". Whether I'd be defending myself from two-legged or four-legged critters, with the open Kansas landscape I'll definitely want something with an accurate range beyond that of a shotgun.



I have no far-fetched fantasies like some folks do about needing a shotgun in an urban, short-range combat setting. If <deleted> ever does hit the fan, I won't be heading downtown, or leaving my property for that matter. No matter what distance or what SD scenario, I think I would always want a handgun or rifle.

This isn't about "uses of a shotgun", I realize they have their purposes as I own, shoot clays with, and occasionally hunt with a single-shot 12 gauge. It's just that I was considering a 12 gauge for SD and now I'm thinking it just won't have a realistic/practical role.

If I'm missing something here, feel free to kindly point it out.

If I'm not missing something, feel free to agree

 

[Fast Frank]

Hey, I'm not gonna beg you to buy a shotgun.

If you don't want one, then do as you wish.

I, however, have one and consider it a valuable tool.

 

[MikeJackmin]

So long as there is a low risk of perforating your neighbors, rifles make fine defensive weapons. AR15s are very popular in this role.

Handguns are great when concealability matters, and there are plenty of times, even in the home, when it is nice to be armed without broadcasting the fact. They are far less powerful then long guns, but if you can shoot your handgun well, then it's a tradeoff you can reasonably make. A short shotgun or carbine with a light on it works pretty well even in the narrow spaces of a home, but you're the one who knows what works best for you.

I believe that there is a lot to be said for selecting any reasonable weapon that makes you feel confident and secure, even if it is arguably not the very best choice. If it makes you a little braver and a little steadier to have the weapon you really want, then so be it.

 

[Virginian]

Fine by me. My shotguns are all in the safe and my pistols are close to hand.

 

[AI&P Tactical]

If you are going to a gun fight, take a shotgun. If you can't take a shotgun, don't go.

Just hope that when you are standing there with your pistol the other guy is not standing there with his shotgun.

 

[Hammer059]

I would never go to a gun fight if I could avoid it. If I had to use a gun to defend myself, my "gun fight" ranges would be less than 10-15 yards in the home, and well over 40 yards at the farm, possibly up to 200-300yds. Where exactly would a shotgun fit in there?

I can't open/close doors, turn on or carry a light, call 911, take corners, or shoot around corners as efficiently with a shotgun in the home.

Out of the home, just an example, but odds are if someone else had a rifle and was across the pond, or down the road, I'd be on the losing end with a shotgun. We're talking Kansas prairie here, I'm going to see a potential threat (and they'll see me) long before they get within shotgun range.

 

[rcmodel]

Whether I'd be defending myself from two-legged or four-legged critters

Born & raised on a Kansas farm. And still live in Kansas 71 years later.

I'm here to tell you there are no four legged critters you need to defend yourself from that can't be handled with a .22 rifle.

My daddy ran a very successful farm and cattle operation most of his life with a single-barrel 12 ga shotgun, and a Winchester .22 pump rifle.

The most dangerous animal in Kansas is cooking meth, and is wearing a wife-beater T-Shirt!

The are easy to identify, as they have lost most of thier yellow rotted teeth to meth already.

Other then that?
Stay out of the bull pen during cattle mating, and you should be good with about anything.

rc

 

[jmr40]

I have several shotguns including one set up as a HD weapon. But it would probably be the last gun I'd consider. They serve a very limited purpose, and are very over rated in my opinion.

At most indoor ranges a handgun is more useful. A shotguns "pattern" at indoor ranges is so tight that it does nothing to increase hit probability over a rifle/carbine or handgun. Recoil is around 30 ft lbs ( about the same as 300 WM) and the likely hood of over penetration is greater than 223 soft point rounds.

The only place where a shotgun really has any advantages is at ranges between 20 to about 50 yards. At 15-20 yards you start to get a pattern large enough to make hits on moving targets easier than with a rifle. Beyond about 40-50 yards they are a waste of time.

 

[geologist]

Shotgun for defense in urban situations where over penetration is a danger.

Everywhere else, a good reliable rifle that you are well trained in its use.

 

[Sheepdog1968]

The one handed operation has some advantage. The advantage of long arms (be it shotgun or rifle) is more energy in the projectile. You need to choose what you think is best for you. If you think it is a pistol that is fine. Ultimately it's not the tool that matters but your skill with it.

 

[rcmodel]

The only place where a shotgun really has any advantages is at ranges between 20 to about 50 yards.

That is actually the range buck-shot is least effective.

That must be why every police swat entry team in the world uses a shotgun, or shotguns for up close and personal man stoppers.

The whole point is not the wide shot pattern at 20 to 50 yards.

The point is getting slammed with multiple .36 cal 'bullets' all at the same time.

Unlike a shot from a handgun?

Nobody fights back with a load or two of 00 buckshot in his chest..

And over-penetration of 00 buck is not a problem, as I can attest.
Once in the Army, a guard shot a prisoner off the wire at about 10-15 yards.

All 9 pellets were found in the dead guys t-shirt on the off side.

Just about perfect penetration in my opinion!


rc

 

[X-Rap]

Yes before you put to much stock in a shotgun holding a good pattern of buckshot at 20-50 yds you need to pattern it. It takes a good chock and loads to make a good 50 yd coyote gun out of a shotgun. If it wont do in a dog it won't save your ars.

 

[TarDevil]

The point is getting slammed with multiple .36 cal 'bullets' all at the same time.

rc

Nailed it.

 

[ugaarguy]

Shotgun for defense in urban situations where over penetration is a danger.

Everywhere else, a good reliable rifle that you are well trained in its use.

Actually, rounds like .223 Rem with non-bonded JSP or ballistic tip bullets tend to have less drywall penetration than 00 Buck.

 

[X-Rap]

Actually, rounds like .223 Rem with non-bonded JSP or ballistic tip bullets tend to have less drywall penetration than 00 Buck.

To bad nobody listens or understands that

 

[Virginian]

Show of hands of everyone who carries the shotgun in the bathroom with them. Out to the garage when you need a tool. Out to the car to retrieve something you forgot. Into the kitchen to get a drink out of the fridge. I am not going to a gunfight. If one comes to me, I want to have a gun.

 

[GRIZ22]

Hammer059, you say in post #6 you could possibly be faced with threats up to 200 or 300 yards.

Could you give me an example of one of these threats? I cannot conceive of a SD situation that would be at that range. Remember, you will need to justify why you were shooting at someone 200-300 yards away.

I generally prefer a handgun as that is what I always had with me when I worked as a leo. However, I always taught other agents that if they were going into something where they might be going into a fight taking a long gun was tge smart thing to do. That long gun was usually a shotgun.

 

[herrwalther]

Shotguns are good "jack of all trades" but master of none. Frankly no firearm is perfect for every role. I am not going to go deer hunting with one of my handguns and I won't be using my shotgun to shoot a mouse in my house, albeit that would be funny in the short term.

I have a shotgun for HD purposes. It is my secondary weapon for that role, mostly for the reasons you pointed out. The primary HD weapon is a handgun. In an awakened state I can get the handgun operational much faster than the shotgun, even though the handgun is locked in a bedside safe.

 

[USAF_Vet]

Looking at the hammers I have in my tool box, I see engineering hammers, claw hammers, deadblow hammers, sledged hammers, framing hammers, round mallets, rip hammers, soft face hammers, brass hammers, tack hammers, slag hammers. I like variety, and use each tool for a specific job. As such, I'll always have a shotgun available for home defense, even if the handgun or AR get used instead.

 

[Hammer059]

Grizz22, I'm not saying that I expect to start shooting at an intruder on my property at 200-300 yards. My point was simply that, if armed with a shotgun, my range will be extremely limited on my property. The only four-legged critters I'd ever consider shooting on our property would be coyotes, which are almost always well beyond effective shotgun distance.

 

[Hammer059]

Rcmodel, where in Kansas are you? I'm in the Flint Hills area about 10-15 minutes north of highway 400 kinda near Severy, KS. A little west of Fall River Lake

 

[lemaymiami]

This debate occurs daily wherever there are shooters.... My only advice would be to use what you have the most confidence in. For me, I'm not likely to ever engage anyone at a distance (if I'm being shot at from a distance I'm going to cover, period.) and then working out a way to withdraw from whatever foolishness I've gotten myself into.... Any likely shooting scenario for me (urban/suburban setting) is going to be pretty close quarters where most would choose to use a handgun... Since I carried a sidearm as a cop for 22 years I'm pretty familiar with the ins and outs of pistols. That's why my first choice (if I have the option) will be a shotgun for pistol ranges (we're talking less than 20 meters here - sometimes a lot closer than that, unfortunately...). In a close quarters confrontation my first worry will have nothing to do with "over penetration" -that first consideration will be stopping the threat - and for that, nothing beats a shotgun, period.

I've seen more than a few seriously wounded individuals (in some cases wounds that would eventually prove fatal...) that were still able to fight and try to take their opponent with them... close quarters stuff means a real possibility of that kind of outcome with a fired up individual. Can't tell you how many times I pointed a handgun at one individual or other only to see that they were completely disregarding my puny handgun.... In real life you'll rarely find anyone that ignores a shotgun pointed their way (and if you don't have to shoot - all the better -actually in my view that's always the best outcome in a serious confrontation....).

For all the reasons described above all I'll ever need at close quarters is a basic riot configured 12ga shotgun (18-20" barrel with improved cylinder or cylinder bore, four shot magazine, simple bead sight) loaded with ordinary 00buck rounds (only 2 3/4" rounds needed -they're commonly available everywhere that I know of).. A solid center of mass hit at 15 meters will result in a 15" pattern with all nine .33caliber pellets. In my world that's a fight ender every time. The first and only time I used a shotgun on the street it was at a measured distance of forty feet. I was pretty clueless about such things even though I was a five year veteran street cop back then. I spent the next 17 years learning as much as I could about tactics while also learning what I could about the finer points of using a defensive shotgun. I learned to have great confidence in my ability with it in all circumstances. To this day I'm very glad I never had to fire another shot.

Like I said, choose whatever you have the most confidence in - but remember there are some individuals that you never want to engage if you have a choice. After shooting them you still might have to outrun them.... You'll never have that problem if you use a shotgun to defend yourself or your family in a close quarters situation.

 

[Ash]

I frankly don't carry in my home, so the need to be armed while I drop a turd is irrelevant. I have all three types of firearm mentioned and have carried all three depending on the situation. A shotgun is an excellent choice as it is more versatile when dealing with varmints in the yard. A handgun can do a superb job as well. I also have a .223 that works well on coyotes.

Keep what you want and are comfortable with. This kind of argument remains as productive as angels on a pin. I will ever and always keep my Savage 720 as I grew up watching what my grandfather did with his Remington 11. Rabid racoons and unwanted armadillos were the most common recipients of his wrath, and in both cases rifles and handguns are at a disadvantage when the critters are moving.

 

[AI&P Tactical]

I would like to be in the court room to hear someone explaining how a person 200 to 300 yards away was a threat against them. If you have enemies that are going to be sniping at you from 200 to 300 yards you need to enter the Witness protection program or something.

 

[I6turbo]

For home defense, another vote for the shotgun. I've been shooting all manner of guns for more than 50 years and currently have at hand a wide variety of guns. If I had to repel a home invasion I'd be most confident in my Auto-5 with 18" barrel and buck shot. I wouldn't feel unarmed with a 9-mm or larger handgun or a semi-automatic rifle, but I'd rather have the 12 gauge.

If I felt like I needed to take a gun with me to the crapper, I'd be moving my family to a different zip code.