thinking of replacing 5.56mm as my go-to cartridge

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The 6.5 Grendel is more like a 243 than a 308. I do not own a 308. I voted 308 because I thought the OP was interested in an AR type rifle. Really the 30/06 is the most versatile rifle you can buy, There are Remington 125gr rounds that you can buy for $15 a box that have 2,700 ft lb of energy at the muzzle. Most people use 150gr ammo for hunting. You have the option of buying 30/06 ammo off the shelf from 125gr to 220gr.

The new bonded bullets and the fragmenting rounds are not any better in a 30/06 than a plain old soft point. The plain old soft point in the right weight will slam any critter in North America down without much fuss given proper shot placement. Plain old soft points have been getting the job done for many decades. Manufacturers may come up with better ways to get into your wallet but they cannot come up with a better game getter than the soft point.
 
I'd stick with 7.62x39.

Lots of new rifles coming out for it, it's cheap right now and easy to pile up several thousand rounds, it retains energy down range better than 5.56, steel AK mags are available and inexpensive, plus Magpul is producing new steel reinforced mags at $26 MSRP... Never been a better time to be in the cartridge.
 
Basically, you are looking for an AK type rifle, or at least non-AR semiauto with detachable mags, in a cartridge more poweful than 5.56, 7.62x39, or 5.45, but with common, cheap components?
 
Go-to-rifle/cartridge?
First, When we say 'go to' I envision for defensive/survival purposes. So, first would be my AR15 in 6.8 spc. My situation may be different than most as I live in a very rural area where collateral damage is not a concern. I already have a good supply of 6.8 for defense/hunting rounds and would use it up first and then fall back on 5.56 and 308 if I run out of 6.8.
The ammo seems to be more readily available and I have found decent pricing as of late.
It may not make sense for others but for my intended purposes and the area where I reside it is perfect for 'me'. One size does not fit all and everyone in this thread has given great insight and opinions as to their reasons for their go-to_____ (fill in the blank).
This is a great forum to learn from others and gain insight from those who are willing to share their thoughts and experience with the rest of us.
As always ymmv.....
 
something that beats out 7.62x39 and 5.56mm (5.56mm in my opinion beats out x39 in more categories than it doesnt), but can be chambered in the same length action for a candidate to begin converting pre-existing 5.56 or x39 rifles to.. forget all about .308 size calibers and rifles, thats a completely different discussion entirely right now, im just focusing on the smaller stuff

___ some of my thoughts

what beast out 5.56 in my opinion, after looking at the external and internal ballistics would have to be the 6.5 grendel or 6.8 SPC, but they do so at a cost that would make it much more expensive to stock up on, neither brass is all that common, heck most x39 stuff is steel cased, so even brass, boxer primed x39 brass isnt as common as you might think..

my goal is to at least have 1,000 rounds in storage at any given point for my go-to rifle, pricing reloading components i've come to the conclusion that it would cost twice as much to store the same amount of ammo in any cartridge that doesnt use 5.56 brass.. cartridges that use 5.56 brass like 6x45mm, 25-45 sharps, 300 AAC blackout, etc would be significantly cheaper to upgrade to because i could still utilize all that dirt-cheap once-fired 5.56 brass to build a large stock of ammo

so where im at now in the thought process is this.. do i want to spend twice as much to build a cache of ammo reserves for 6.5 grendel or 6.8 grendel? id of course still have my 5.56 rifle and a small stash of ammo to fall back on.. or would i be better off finding a cartridge that offers some kind of a performance increase over 5.56, but still utilizes common 5.56 brass and be a negligible additonal cost to store up on and still use conventional magazines and bolts?
 
Im not saying the good bonded rounds dont work better but we shot up several Iraqi Toyota pickups with M855 and they never failed to penetrate windshields or sheet metal.
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Poor performance of M855 against windshields and other light barrier material with the inability to produce substantial wound trauma is what led USMC to issue Mk318. The Marines were considering 6.8x43mm until the Army allegedly stole Liberty Ammunition's T3 bullet design for the M855A1 EPR ( http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ap8O9ArPjWg ).

M193 demonstrates slightly better performance against windshield glass than M855.
 
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you know what would be cool?.. 7N6s bullet design in a 6.5 grendel.. like a super poison bullet
 
Since SHOT PLACEMENT is more important than what intermediate cartridge is used, then PRACTICE is more important that caliber. It makes little difference that a 6.8 or other round is 50% more powerful than 5.56, or has more velocity, or more range, or more whatever. ...
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No one is advocating less accuracy when going to stronger caliber.

However, the assertion above is a fallacy.

Unless your every shot is a brain or spine shot, your rifle shots are actually HIGHLY reliant on the bullet's destructive power.

If caliber differnce makes very little difference, as you assert, then why do SWAT bother to bring clumbersome rifle caliber carbines into CQB when they can just shoot MP5?

Even for rifle caliber, there is no reason non-CNS hit will always result in immediate incapacitation. So, your stomach shot may just as well be only as good as a thigh shot. However, with higher power rifle ammo, shots near a vital organ can still damage the vital organs while lower power ammo will just poke a hole with little damage to things next to its path which is what too often happened with 5.56mm
 
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"...Mk 318 is in stock..." Think in terms of what ammo you'd be able to find with no retailing or mail order around. Like New Orleans after Katrina. You'll likely be able to find 5.56 and maybe 7.62NATO or x 39, but all the new stuff like 6.8 etc will be completely unavailable.
Mind you, for non-apocalypse SD, there's no need for a rifle at all.
"...Poor performance of M855 against windshields..." Moot. Shoot a terr/criminal though a windshield that's coming at you and you have a 1 ton plus uncontrolled, projectile coming at you.
 
"...Mk 318 is in stock..." Think in terms of what ammo you'd be able to find with no retailing or mail order around. Like New Orleans after Katrina. You'll likely be able to find 5.56 and maybe 7.62NATO or x 39, but all the new stuff like 6.8 etc will be completely unavailable.
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What will be gone during "Katrina" won't matter. If you did not have it before "Katrina," you won't have it during it no matter how popular of a ammo it is.

Mind you, for non-apocalypse SD, there's no need for a rifle at all.
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Complete false. You can stop LA riot mobs from your home with a rifle. If it actually is an apocalypse, you having an M1 Abrams won't matter.

"...Poor performance of M855 against windshields..." Moot. Shoot a terr/criminal though a windshield that's coming at you and you have a 1 ton plus uncontrolled, projectile coming at you.
Click to expand...

That's still better then controlled 1 ton plus projectile GUIED and HOMING towards me.
 
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If civilians, or LE for that matter, want increased performance against vehicles etc, why not just move to 308. Increased bulk and weight isn't a factor since it's not being carried. .308 is going to be cheaper than any solution outside of 5.56 or x39.
 
two of the rifles coming up on my list are bigger caliber rifles, one being a 7.62x54R rifle built on an RPK or PSL parts kit with a shortened 16" RPK contoured heavy barrel.. the other will likely be an FAL or another PTR91, so i already have the big stuff taken care of

__

what do you guys think of the two thoughts i was having?.. upgrade to 6.5 grendel or 6.8SPC, sure itll cost more to do so but i get a HUGE performance boost or the other option is find something that uses the .223 case, will have a mild performance increase, but will be cheap to stock up on?

at any rate, most my rifles will probably still be 5.56 caliber rifles, so i'll still have that for a backup, it just may not be the "go-to" rifle anymore for 90% of my needs which include defense, hunting, and maybe even the "apocalypse" as you guys say..i do believe though that the performance of the 6.5 and 6.8 is enough of an increase to handle about 75% of the tasks i may have previously used a .308 for
 
If civilians, or LE for that matter, want increased performance against vehicles etc, why not just move to 308. ...
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Recoil.

A lot of gun people tend to vastly overestimate their recoil control capability.

Going "boom!" and saying "That was not so bad..." is one thing.

Going "boom boom boom boom" and having complete control of the rifle, while under stress, while forced in awkward position, while wearing something other than just a comfy range clothing is a different matter.

Also, do not assume you being able to handle an M1A type 308 "Battle Rifle" means you'd be able to handle a 308 made in a carbine form with the same effectiveness. Anything larger than a carbine is too clumbersome for general use.
 
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Im not saying the good bonded rounds dont work better but we shot up several Iraqi Toyota pickups with M855 and they never failed to penetrate windshields or sheet metal.
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Sheet metal is okay. But, I have witnessed M855 just fragment upon impact with windshield while in Iraq. The driver only had non-critical flesh wounds.
 
Originally Posted by Welding Rod:
What are you shooting that requires more than a 556?
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It appears that your question is assuming 5.56 was adequate to begin with. An assumption not everyone agrees on.
 
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well, i think 6x45mm is out.. i dont see anything it can do ballistically that a 75 grain 5.56 cant do.. so i wont be considering 6x45 anymore since it adds nothing and costs more.. same with 300 blackout.. guess the only one left that still uses 5.56 brass is the 25-45 sharps and its hard to find any ballistic data on it.. so i dont think any of the 5.56 case derivatives will provide much of anything but more complication

which means i either stick with 5.56, or i switch to 6.8 or 6.5
 
justin22885 said:
something that beats out 7.62x39 and 5.56mm (5.56mm in my opinion beats out x39 in more categories than it doesnt), but can be chambered in the same length action for a candidate to begin converting pre-existing 5.56 or x39 rifles to.. forget all about .308 size calibers and rifles, thats a completely different discussion entirely right now, im just focusing on the smaller stuff

___ some of my thoughts

what beast out 5.56 in my opinion, after looking at the external and internal ballistics would have to be the 6.5 grendel or 6.8 SPC, but they do so at a cost that would make it much more expensive to stock up on, neither brass is all that common, heck most x39 stuff is steel cased, so even brass, boxer primed x39 brass isnt as common as you might think..

my goal is to at least have 1,000 rounds in storage at any given point for my go-to rifle, pricing reloading components i've come to the conclusion that it would cost twice as much to store the same amount of ammo in any cartridge that doesnt use 5.56 brass.. cartridges that use 5.56 brass like 6x45mm, 25-45 sharps, 300 AAC blackout, etc would be significantly cheaper to upgrade to because i could still utilize all that dirt-cheap once-fired 5.56 brass to build a large stock of ammo

so where im at now in the thought process is this.. do i want to spend twice as much to build a cache of ammo reserves for 6.5 grendel or 6.8 grendel? id of course still have my 5.56 rifle and a small stash of ammo to fall back on.. or would i be better off finding a cartridge that offers some kind of a performance increase over 5.56, but still utilizes common 5.56 brass and be a negligible additonal cost to store up on and still use conventional magazines and bolts?
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Utilizing a non-.223 based based case with a different bolt & magazines is a negative in an AR platform IMHO. It's been optimized and refined for years to work with that .223 case and the changes needed to make it function with other case designs lead to lesser reliability.

I've always been surprised that the 6x45 has never attained greatly popularity, maybe it's performance is just too much less than the .243 Win. The 25-45 Sharps however virtually duplicates the classic .250 Savage, as the supersonic loadings of the 300 Blackout match up almost identically to the 7.62x39.

I believe your best option might to maintain the .223 as your go-to choice for now while experimenting with the the the above 2 rounds. Determine if one or the other gives enough gain to be worth switching and proceed from there.
 
"...Poor performance of M855 against windshields..." Moot. Shoot a terr/criminal though a windshield that's coming at you and you have a 1 ton plus uncontrolled, projectile coming at you.
Click to expand...

The vehicle may not be moving. It may be being used as cover/concealment.

If it is moving, you may not be in its path.

The bullets may encounter more than mere sheetmetal.
 
I'm currently out on a hunting trip and shooting game for the first time with a 6.5 Grendel. This may be my new favorite cartridge, definitely is for an AR size round. We've shot deer and pigs with it, and did some target shooting at 700 yards. I am really impressed with the performance for a cartridge with such light recoil.
 
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