BADUNAME14
Member
I must be in the wrong place. I thought this was a gun forum, not part of the Brady Campaign.
This is for everybody who continues to insist that anyone in their home is a threat
- Thread starter Jeff White
- Start date
- Status
I must be in the wrong place. I thought this was a gun forum, not part of the Brady Campaign.
I agree with Jeff and Xavier.
Assume the increased risk of positive target identification or assume the responsibility for shooting the wrong person. It is disconcerting to read the number of posts that attempt to skirt that basic fact.
I am willing to accept increased risk to access my situation and shoot if necessary. What I'm not prepared to do is hope that my decision to shoot is correct.
Assume the increased risk of positive target identification or assume the responsibility for shooting the wrong person. It is disconcerting to read the number of posts that attempt to skirt that basic fact.
I am willing to accept increased risk to access my situation and shoot if necessary. What I'm not prepared to do is hope that my decision to shoot is correct.
TexasSkyhawk
Internet SEAL
flatdog said:
I'll respect your opinion and how you mentally/emotionally pre-plan in case, heaven forbid, you're ever called to make that decision.
But what gets my back up is when a differing opinion is dismissed and the holders of the differing opinion are judged as morally deficient.
Who is anyone to judge the way another man or woman chooses to protect their family based upon their perceived risk?
Based upon simple geography alone, one can begin to ascertain whether or not someone in your home constitutes a viable, immediately dangerous risk.
Out in the country, nearest neighbor being over two miles away, anyone coming through my back door into the kitchen at 3:00 a.m. is not some errant landlord/maintenance man/cable tv guy/plumber/confused pedestrian/etc etc.
If I'm a soccer mom with two kids away at college, two in high school and it's spring break and I know everyone has come home and is coming and going, then yeah, I'm going to be a lot more prudent in determining who is rummaging around my kitchen at 3:00 a.m.
I can easily respect people's opinion on what will work best for them. What I can not--and will not--accept is holier-than-thou moral superiority arguments.
Flatdog gave a nice summary of what he'd do and why without climbing on a pedestal of self-annointed authority and (publicly) judging or berating or belittling anyone else who might see or do differently.
That's the High Road.
Jeff
crankshop1000
Member
- Joined
- Apr 17, 2007
- Messages
- 372
Any subject approached with a "zero tolerance" attitude will likely end up poorly.THINK!!!!!!!!!!
WeedWhacker
Member
bix said:
Leave your house? Alright then - I hope you've practiced your evacuation times and routes, accounting for the possibility that the intruders who've just broken into your house are between you and the normal exits.
Oh, excuse me: "faked" a break-in.
Byron Quick
Moderator In Memoriam
I've got a friend who gets the giggles from pulling practical jokes similar to this. Runs up screaming at O'dark thirty at a hunt camp with armed hunters sleeping...several of whom don't know him at all.
I've had sit down come to Jesus talks with him on the matter on several occasions. I've told him bluntly that if he succeeds with his practical joke, makes me feel threatened, and I don't recognize him...he could get shot multiple times...as in, idjit, I had a 1911 in my hand tonight. I recognized your screaming voice before I saw you. I didn't recognize you when I saw you. Buddy, I'm almost totally deaf in my left ear, blind in my left eye, and have deficient hearing in my right ear. You really want to keep trying to scare me?
I have abandoned my house to an intruder in the past. Not because I didn't identify him but because he was between the firearms and me and I was between the exits and him.
My doors are locked. My friends and relatives have been told how to proceed if they feel the need to force entrance into my home. Anyone not following that procedure will be giving evidence to friend or foe identification.
Among those friends are no irresponsible children or mentally incompetent adults. The one practical joker amongst my friends has been bluntly warned about the consequences of that crap. Might tell him to sign a waiver stating he has been warned of the possible consequences of his foolishness.
I've had sit down come to Jesus talks with him on the matter on several occasions. I've told him bluntly that if he succeeds with his practical joke, makes me feel threatened, and I don't recognize him...he could get shot multiple times...as in, idjit, I had a 1911 in my hand tonight. I recognized your screaming voice before I saw you. I didn't recognize you when I saw you. Buddy, I'm almost totally deaf in my left ear, blind in my left eye, and have deficient hearing in my right ear. You really want to keep trying to scare me?
I have abandoned my house to an intruder in the past. Not because I didn't identify him but because he was between the firearms and me and I was between the exits and him.
My doors are locked. My friends and relatives have been told how to proceed if they feel the need to force entrance into my home. Anyone not following that procedure will be giving evidence to friend or foe identification.
Among those friends are no irresponsible children or mentally incompetent adults. The one practical joker amongst my friends has been bluntly warned about the consequences of that crap. Might tell him to sign a waiver stating he has been warned of the possible consequences of his foolishness.
TexasSkyhawk
Internet SEAL
A quick clarification
I had a forum member PM me who was concerned that I might be singling one certain person out with the above remark.
For the record, please let me assure you that I am NOT singling any one specific person out. In looking through similar, related subjects, there are plenty of folks who piously judge the actions and/or thoughts of others.
On both sides.
On both the "no life is worth taking over mere property" side, as well as the "it's my house and if you ain't willing to defend your own house, then you must be a real coward" side.
One thing I do know for certain: Most who are that pious, that quick to judge one way or another, and that sure of themselves in regards to what they'd do, well, the vast overall majority of those folks have never had to aim a loaded, cocked firearm at another human being before, let alone pull the trigger.
Or, on the opposite side, they've never felt the barrel of a gun pressed against their own head and known that they were quite possibly mere seconds from certain death.
Those that have experienced one or the other, or both, normally aren't so quick and pious to judge as no two situations are ever identical.
I liked Flatdog's open and honest answer because he stated what he felt he'd do and why as it pertained to himself.
And as I said before, that's the High Road route that helps us all look a little deeper within ourselves.
Jeff
TexasSkyhawk said:
I had a forum member PM me who was concerned that I might be singling one certain person out with the above remark.
For the record, please let me assure you that I am NOT singling any one specific person out. In looking through similar, related subjects, there are plenty of folks who piously judge the actions and/or thoughts of others.
On both sides.
On both the "no life is worth taking over mere property" side, as well as the "it's my house and if you ain't willing to defend your own house, then you must be a real coward" side.
One thing I do know for certain: Most who are that pious, that quick to judge one way or another, and that sure of themselves in regards to what they'd do, well, the vast overall majority of those folks have never had to aim a loaded, cocked firearm at another human being before, let alone pull the trigger.
Or, on the opposite side, they've never felt the barrel of a gun pressed against their own head and known that they were quite possibly mere seconds from certain death.
Those that have experienced one or the other, or both, normally aren't so quick and pious to judge as no two situations are ever identical.
I liked Flatdog's open and honest answer because he stated what he felt he'd do and why as it pertained to himself.
And as I said before, that's the High Road route that helps us all look a little deeper within ourselves.
Jeff
Troutman
member
<<Police believe that a practical joke led to the shooting of a 23-year-old >>
And people wonder why, some cities, have "Code of Ordinances".
Example: Like under the age of 18....to be in (and stay in) the house by 11 p.m. Till 5 a.m (next day).
Even though it happened at 9:45 p.m. Person was 23.....not kosher.
And people wonder why, some cities, have "Code of Ordinances".
Example: Like under the age of 18....to be in (and stay in) the house by 11 p.m. Till 5 a.m (next day).
Even though it happened at 9:45 p.m. Person was 23.....not kosher.
CoRoMo
Member
Looks like there are a few, if not several, definitions of 'hostile',
Some here seem to believe that if someone breaks into your home and refuses to ID himself, the intruder is acting hostile.
I suppose, an intruder that is hostile wouldn't ID himself. This particular intruder wasn't hostile even if the homeowner thought otherwise, and not every intruder is hostile, obviously.
At what point would that figure, walking through your darkened house, refusing to ID himself, be determined hostile?
Of coarse, providing light would give you the chance to make that determination, but if you take away that variable, the ability to illuminate that darkened figure, what's the plan?
Hello TexasSkyhawk,
Thank you for your comments. I was fully prepared to be flamed for my post and was pleasantly surprised when the opposite occurred.
ETA: The thoughts below are addressed to the board as a whole.
The application of four pounds of pressure to the trigger may be accomplished with little or no thought. To that extent, the consequences of that action are so profound as to require all possible deliberation, well before application.
flatdog
Thank you for your comments. I was fully prepared to be flamed for my post and was pleasantly surprised when the opposite occurred.
ETA: The thoughts below are addressed to the board as a whole.
The application of four pounds of pressure to the trigger may be accomplished with little or no thought. To that extent, the consequences of that action are so profound as to require all possible deliberation, well before application.
flatdog
After reading most of the replies, I'd have to agree that it is a good shoot.
I would assume that most hostile targets would avoid identification until they believe that they had the drop on you. Therefore, you cannot wait for positive identification.
I do wonder, though, if the BIL LEO knew the chaplain had a gun? If he did, he is even MORE at fault in his own shooting.
There isn't a switch in my kitchen for the kitchen light.
I have to enter the living room and walk across the room to illuminate the living room from my bedroom.
It is not possible to illuminate my basement without first walking down into the basement.
Were this to happen in my house, illuminating the subject would be difficult. Illuminating it with a flashlight would be possible, but it paints a target on me.
It is an unfortunate incident, but I don't blame the chaplain. Had it been a bad guy, he was already putting his own life at risk by giving up his advantage and verbally challenging the unknown intruder.
When parents have kids (or spouses) out of the house... on trips, camping, at the movies, etc, we are always "on call" for things to go wrong and to have them show up early or to get a call in the middle of the night to come get them. If my kid was out on a camping trip in the rain, I would *expect* that they might cut the trip short. So whomever gave the example of "I could have shot my kid and 3 friends" was giving an unrealistic example. You know that some of your family members are not home, and you expect that they might come home without much notice and that they would do so quietly so as to not awaken everyone in the house.
If the chaplain knew that everyone who lived in the house was already in the house (and this appears to be the case), it was unrealistic to expect that anyone else who was friendly might be showing up at odd hours, entering the home, and not announcing their intentions.
I would assume that most hostile targets would avoid identification until they believe that they had the drop on you. Therefore, you cannot wait for positive identification.
I do wonder, though, if the BIL LEO knew the chaplain had a gun? If he did, he is even MORE at fault in his own shooting.
There isn't a switch in my kitchen for the kitchen light.
I have to enter the living room and walk across the room to illuminate the living room from my bedroom.
It is not possible to illuminate my basement without first walking down into the basement.
Were this to happen in my house, illuminating the subject would be difficult. Illuminating it with a flashlight would be possible, but it paints a target on me.
It is an unfortunate incident, but I don't blame the chaplain. Had it been a bad guy, he was already putting his own life at risk by giving up his advantage and verbally challenging the unknown intruder.
When parents have kids (or spouses) out of the house... on trips, camping, at the movies, etc, we are always "on call" for things to go wrong and to have them show up early or to get a call in the middle of the night to come get them. If my kid was out on a camping trip in the rain, I would *expect* that they might cut the trip short. So whomever gave the example of "I could have shot my kid and 3 friends" was giving an unrealistic example. You know that some of your family members are not home, and you expect that they might come home without much notice and that they would do so quietly so as to not awaken everyone in the house.
If the chaplain knew that everyone who lived in the house was already in the house (and this appears to be the case), it was unrealistic to expect that anyone else who was friendly might be showing up at odd hours, entering the home, and not announcing their intentions.
el44vaquero
Member
For all of you that say, "I asked the intruder to identify himself and he refused, so I'll turn on the lights to see who it is."
Well, if I was a BG, I'd love you for doing that. I'll just keep quiet, that way you keep yelling out and I can find exactly where you are to put you in the ground. Flip on the lights and make it even easier on me.
I guess it might be different since I live in a rural part of Oklahoma. My nearest neighbor is 10 minutes away. I know exactly who's in my house at any given point of time, and after lights out there will be nobody coming into my house unless I greet them at the door.
If someone enters my house without me greeting them, then it's by force. They will not get a "I'm over here and let me turn on the lights for you." from me.
That's just incredibly stupid in my opinion.
Well, if I was a BG, I'd love you for doing that. I'll just keep quiet, that way you keep yelling out and I can find exactly where you are to put you in the ground. Flip on the lights and make it even easier on me.
I guess it might be different since I live in a rural part of Oklahoma. My nearest neighbor is 10 minutes away. I know exactly who's in my house at any given point of time, and after lights out there will be nobody coming into my house unless I greet them at the door.
If someone enters my house without me greeting them, then it's by force. They will not get a "I'm over here and let me turn on the lights for you." from me.
That's just incredibly stupid in my opinion.
CoRoMo
Member
Jeff White certainly did get me thinking about this issue. I think before I read through this thread (all 7 pages!), I'd probably be in a hurry to get into an 'Armed Citizen' article.
I'll definitely get a good quality flashlight and keep it in the nightstand with my hardware.
However, I'd like to hear a response from someone with a higher level of training than most of us members have.
I'll definitely get a good quality flashlight and keep it in the nightstand with my hardware.
However, I'd like to hear a response from someone with a higher level of training than most of us members have.
revjen45
Member
"Why does the shooter have to dig for a light? Why can't he just turn the lights on? "
Umm- because it might give the intruder the first shot and the light to make it count?
Not advocating the irresponsible popping off at everything the dog barks at, but I don't plan to give the BG the first shot either.
Umm- because it might give the intruder the first shot and the light to make it count?
Not advocating the irresponsible popping off at everything the dog barks at, but I don't plan to give the BG the first shot either.
pangris
Member
If you can't see it, you shouldn't shoot it... nuff said.
MrRezister
Member
I love pranks -
- so if someone in a skimask sneaks up behind any of you guys and demands all your money, don't freak out and shoot me or anything.
I'm just playing.
- so if someone in a skimask sneaks up behind any of you guys and demands all your money, don't freak out and shoot me or anything.
I'm just playing.
Double Naught Spy
Sus Venator
So you agree it was a good shoot since he could see it well enough to shoot it?
I may be old school, but you just don't hear of many B&E pranks anymore, especially by cops, unless the prank is for reasons other than humor and then it isn't a prank, is it?
If it comes inside your domicile's perimeter (B&E) and refuses your verbal challenge, it would be silly to consider it to be a friendly.
gyp_c2
Member
geez Louise...
...Thanks for that Jeff...
...and yer' absolutely right...I've been spending more time away from here and it sure seems to be gettin' a bit wild around here...
I truthfully wouldn't recognize the forum from the posts if I didn't know where they came from...
It's certainly a far cry from what I remember, or at least thought I remembered I liked about this place...
Is it really that bad where you live?
I'll grant you this...No One is going to be welcomed that surprises me by sneaking into my place...
I will make certain of that much...I can't say that things are so bad here that I feel I must shoot first and ask questions later...I would be a very, very poor host though
...Thanks for that Jeff...
...and yer' absolutely right...I've been spending more time away from here and it sure seems to be gettin' a bit wild around here...
I truthfully wouldn't recognize the forum from the posts if I didn't know where they came from...
It's certainly a far cry from what I remember, or at least thought I remembered I liked about this place...
Is it really that bad where you live?
I'll grant you this...No One is going to be welcomed that surprises me by sneaking into my place...
I will make certain of that much...I can't say that things are so bad here that I feel I must shoot first and ask questions later...I would be a very, very poor host though
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