This make me re think defensive loads....

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First of all, he should have had the pork shoulder in front of the rack of ribs. Most people don't wear clothes directly over their ribs. I don't have much in the way of a bench press cause I have a girly-man chest but I still probably have a good 2 to 3 inches of muscle and tissue in the form of pectoral muscles between my clothes and my rib cage.

Secondly, as I've said many times before, 1/3 of Americans are obese and just under 1/2 of us are overweight. At 6'6" and 190 pounds, I don't fall in this category, but chances are good if you have to drop the hammer in anger, they're going to be a bit thicker than me.

Okay, I am shorter and heavier than you are and except for possibly way up high and laterally positioned close to the insertion of the pectorals at the shoulders, there is no way I have 2-3" of flesh, much less of just muscle, over my ribs. Additionally, the ribs on the front and back below the pectoral girdle as well as around the sides probably have only about 1/4-1/2" of tissue covering them and less over the sternum.

Looking at numerous male axial CT scans online, most show little tissue covering the ribs except high in the pectoral girdle on the front and throught the scapula and shoulder girdle on the back. At the level of the heart, most show only about 1-1.5" or less for the pectoral muscles. Anywhere you can reach around and feel your ribs, you don't have 2-3" of tissue covering them. Women with their additional breast tissue so up to a couple of inches or so of tissue covering the ribs at heart level, however.

Also with a straight-on shot, the pectoral muscles cover little of the heart.

You are correct in that relevant tissue is missing from the test, but it isn't all that much in regard to thickness.
 
I read a report written by a doctor that served in Iraq. The military uses shotguns in close quarters and in areas where they are trying to avoid collateral damage. He said, no one he treated that was shot above the waist with a shotgun survived. Birdshot is an effective killer as well. If you are shot in the stomach it is very difficult for a doctor to remove all the birdshot. Not to mention infections from the contents of the intestines leaking into the body cavity.

Just because you delivered a fatal wound with birdshot does not mean you have stopped the attack. To stop the attack we are talking 30 feet.

My grandfather once treated a man who attempted suicide by shooting himself in the chest with a 12 ga and birdshot. He said that it was one of the most gruesome wounds he ever saw that was not fatal. The victim actually walked over to good neighbors house in order to get help after having second thoughts of killing himself. Not only was my grandfather able to save the man; the point-blank shot was not a stopping shot, even to a person who wanted to die. All of the birdshot was not removed, but the man did not suffer any harmful effects from them remaining in his body either.

That makes me say no to birdshot for defensive purposes, but to each his own.

Sent from my HTC One X
 
I did my own tests versus a 1988 Pontiac at 20 feet.

Standard 7.5 birdshot = door was dented like you kicked it. Could see individual shot pellet pockmarks in the paint.

00 9-pellet buckshot = door perforated, inner panel penetrated, embedded in seat and in opposite door panel, did not penetrate other side door skin

1 oz slug = through and through door, through dash, both thicknesses of the cowl, inner fender, ricocheted off of front suspension strut and lost in the grass.

Decreased distance to roughly 8-10 feet from the 1988 Pontiac and tried again.

7.5 shot = caved in door skin, paint scoured away, no penetration

00 9-pellet buckshot = penetrated through and through the door and into opposite door, raised dimples and nearly penetrated through other side door. You could stick your fingers through the door on the side it went in.

1 oz slug = through and through door, through and through steering column trim, through and through other door, lost in woods on other side of car. Left hole on opposite side that you could reach into the door.

Decreased distance to the 1988 Pontiac again to roughly 3' from the metal and tried again with only 7.5 shot... punched a neat hole in the door skin similar to the slug. Did not penetrate beyond the first door, sprayed chips of plastic and paint and lead all over the interior.

And my wife wonders why I'm always picking up wads when I mow the grass.
 
Some other considerations here, based on various posts in this thread, in no particular order...

Peritonitis (infection) might well be a killer, but it isn't a 'stopper.' Having someone die a week after you shoot them would be cold comfort if they were able to kill you or a family member after they were shot. The point in shooting an assailant is to INSTANTLY STOP them from doing what they were doing that caused them to be shot, not to kill them eventually.

There was once a great article available online in full text and with pictures, titled Shotgun Suicide With A Difference (https://www.mja.com.au/journal/2000/173/11/shotgun-suicide-difference). I often referred to it to try an enlighten 'birdshot is enough' proponents to the requirements for careful shot placement with smaller projectiles. It's now in 'pay to play' format, unfortunately. There's a synopsis at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple_gunshot_suicide however:

One particular case has been documented from Australia. In February 1995, a man committed suicide on parkland in Canberra, Australia. He took a pump action shotgun and shot himself in the chest. The load passed through the chest without hitting a rib, and went out the other side. He then walked fifteen meters, reloaded, leaned the shotgun against his throat, and shot his throat and part of his jaw. He then reloaded, walked 136 meters to a hill slope, lay down on the slope, held the gun against his chest with his hands and operated the trigger with his toes. This shot entered the thoracic cavity and demolished the heart, killing him.

The loads used in this case were #2 shot IIRC.

The point is not that birdshot won't kill - it certainly will, as an EMT I zipped up body bags on people who were killed with birdshot at close range. The point is that peripheral hits with birdshot not only won't kill, they won't even stop in some cases. This is a major consideration in defensive shooting and nothing to be taken lightly. Of course it isn't the only consideration in choosing defensive shotgun loads, but it certainly reinforces the destruction of another shotgun myth. Even with a shotgun, you STILL have to shoot carefully.

I see the "#1 buck is best" argument often. Well, in theory it might well be, but in theory a bumblebee can't fly either. I have yet to find any 12 gauge shotgun/barrel/choke in which #1 buck will pattern worth a darn. Since I first heard the "#1 buck is best" argument in a hunter safety class when I was a mere teenager, I've been experimenting with it for about forty years now. And I still can't get it to pattern. If you can get it to pattern, more power to you - but just because some theory on the Internet says #1 buck is best is a poor reason to adopt it without testing it to see if it fits your needs. I'll stick with 00 or Brenneke slugs for defensive use, till I find something better.

All the above said, it's still each person's decision to make as to what they load in their defensive shotgun. But such choices are important, and should not be made lightly or on a mere whim.
 
After several years of reading and thinking on this topic I settled on 00 buck instead of birdshot My second choice would be slugs. At any given day a particular load can work or fail. That's why we have follow up shots.
 
You are correct in that relevant tissue is missing from the test, but it isn't all that much in regard to thickness.

Okay. True dat. My bad. Probably closer to 2 to 3 centimeters rather than 2 to 3 inches. I still maintain that even at close range, birdshot doesn't have the requisite penetration for home defense.

I do have an interesting story to go with evan price 's experience. During the 4th of July, for several years, we would have a family skeet shoot on my grandpa's property. Well one year we just happened to be watching some cheesy action movie as my grandpa is grilling burgers. He walks in to announce he has a couple ready, just in time to see someone blowing a car apart from across a parking lot on this film. He chuckles, nods his head, and walks back out to the grill. Later, after we've shot our fill of skeet, he invites us over to this old Crysler he has had defunct and parked since I was a boy. From a distance of about 25 yards, he has my brother shoot at the window. My brother looks at him like it's a trap, my grandpa says "nah, go ahead." So my brother pulls up and BOOF! The window is still intact. So we move up a ways. I'd say from about 30 feet, the window broke, but a shot to the driver door panel barely scratched the paint. He let us advance up to about 10 or 12 feet from it and shoot it again, which pretty much mirrored Evan's experience. We never got to try it with buckshot, but the point was made--even from a full choke and at spitting distance, birdshot sucks against vehicles.
 
Yeah...........I'm definitely in the camp that says bird shot is for birds. I use cylinder bore shotguns with #3 or #4 Buckshot, and I DO NOT use flight control shells. Inside the house, ranges are too close for flight control. If I need to take a shot outdoors at extended range, it's not going to be done with a shotgun.
 
LeonCarr and myself did some testing with various buckshot, the picture below represents the various manufacturers that we tested and were all shot from an 18 1'2 Mossberg with an improved cylinder choke and from a 50 foot distance. As you will see none of them are the same pattern wise, the Federal LE with flight control wad proved to have the tightest group, if you can call a single hole a group. This ammo displaces the theory that with a shotgun you just point and shoot. One of these days I may do the same with birdshot so we can have a side by side comparison. Personally the only way I would consider birdshot as a defensive load is if I lived in an apartment with only sheetrock walls..........

ShotgunAmmoTest.gif
 
^^^^^^^^^^

And that is why I don't like flight control for HD. It's meant for hunting, to keep the shot together at extended ranges for dropping deer. For HD, I want the pattern to grow quickly. If I want one big hole, I'll just use slugs.

That's also why I use #3 & #4 buck. 00 is equivalent to 8 or 9 .32 ACP FMJ's, where #4 buck is like THIRTY .25 ACP hits.
 
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And that is why I don't like flight control for HD. It's meant for hunting, to keep the shot together at extended ranges for dropping deer.

Actually the FliteControl buckshot loads were first released for law enforcement use, and my own favorite flavor is still one of Federal's LE loads (LE127-00)...
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http://www.officer.com/product/1004...mmunition-tactical-buckshot-with-flitecontrol

Tactical Buckshot With FLITECONTROL

FROM FEDERAL PREMIUM LAW ENFORCEMENT AMMUNITION
CREATED: SEPTEMBER 14, 2007

Federal Premium's FLITECONTROL wad shotshell system delivers the tightest buckshot patterns available for law enforcement -- all without barrel alterations or aftermarket choke tubes. Tactical Buckshot also features copper-plated shot and recoil reduction that, when combined with the FLITECONTROL wad, result in dependable and predictable pattern performance. Tactical Buckshot also features a solid brass head for reliable function -- not brass-plated steel that can swell and cause extraction issues. Federal Premium Tactical Buckshot is offered in reduced recoil 8 and 9 pellet 00, and a full power 9 pellet 00 for semi-automatic shotguns.
 
"And that is why I don't like flight control for HD. It's meant for hunting, to keep the shot together at extended ranges for dropping deer."

Interesting concept but I know a lot of LE Agency's that will strongly disagree with that train of thought as all they use is the Federal FlightControl (model number LE13200 low recoil buckshot) because it keeps the pellets together. Personally if I was going to hunt with a shotgun I would use slugs and at least get a reasonable accurate range but to each their own......
 
Interesting concept but I know a lot of LE Agency's that will strongly disagree with that train of thought as all they use is the Federal FlightControl (model number LE13200 low recoil buckshot) because it keeps the pellets together

They have a different mission, different needs. An LEO needing to use lethal force on a violent actor 30 yards away with bystanders present needs more precision; A homeowner trying to stop an invader 15 feet away does not need (or necessarily want) a tight pattern. I specifically looked for loads that began to disperse at less than 10 feet from my cylinder bore guns.

Like I said, if I need precision, a shotgun is not my go-to. That said, my truck gun is a beater 870, and I do keep flight control 00 and 000 buck in it, as well as slugs and other loads. But defense is a secondary or tertiary purpose for that gun; Euthanizing injured deer or other critters on the roadside is the primary reason I keep it behind the seat, and I have had to do that more than once out here.
 
Salty1's shotgun is easily the tightest Flitecontrol Buckshot shooting shotgun I have ever seen. At 50 feet the shot is barely leaving the wad, if at all.

Out of the 3 Remington 870s I own, the Flitecontrol 00 Buckshot (LE13200) patterns anywhere from racquetball size to around 6 inches at 50 feet depending on the gun (A good reason to pattern test your individual shotgun). For me the 6 inch pattern at 50 feet is about perfect, with some experts in the field saying that a pattern between 5-8 inches on the target maximizes wounding and rapid incapacitation.

I have Flitecontrol 00 Buckshot in both my duty shotgun and my HD shotgun and yes, it is that good.

Salty1's Mossberg 500 just shoots crazy tight with Flitecontrol.

Just my .02,
LeonCarr
 
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I see the "#1 buck is best" argument often. Well, in theory it might well be, but in theory a bumblebee can't fly either. I have yet to find any 12 gauge shotgun/barrel/choke in which #1 buck will pattern worth a darn. Since I first heard the "#1 buck is best" argument in a hunter safety class when I was a mere teenager, I've been experimenting with it for about forty years now. And I still can't get it to pattern. If you can get it to pattern, more power to you - but just because some theory on the Internet says #1 buck is best is a poor reason to adopt it without testing it to see if it fits your needs. I'll stick with 00 or Brenneke slugs for defensive use, till I find something better.

I wild guess that you haven't shot the new LE132 1B yet. I have, and it patterns just as good as LE132 00, which had been my go-to HD load (until I tried 1B). Old Painless has just posted a review of LE132 1B on The Box O' Truth. He concludes (as I already had) that LE132 1B is "the best ammunition available for your home defense or police/military shotgun".
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot56.htm
 
Thanks for the heads up and the link for the 1B, now I need to find some and do some testing versus the 3200, sounds very promising. A quick google search did not turn anything up so time to check the distributors..........
 
Salty,
It's tough to find right now, as demand is very strong and it seems that everything that makes it into the distribution channels is being sucked-up immediately. I managed to purchase some about 5-6 weeks ago from http://www.ammoman.com/, but he sold out quickly and hasn't been able to re-stock.
 
I waited eagerly for the advent of Federal's much-vaunted #1 buck load with FliteControl... only to find out it was a reduced recoil load. :(

Sorry, but I don't use RR loads for serious stuff. I may need a shotgun at longer range than just 'house gun' across-the-room or down-the-hall range, and I'm not starting out with a load that sacrifices performance to get less recoil. The factory lists the MV of the LE132 1B load at 1100 FPS (http://le.atk.com/general/federalproducts/shotshell/tacticalbuckshot.aspx).

Now if they'll just offer my favorite full velocity LE127 load in #1 buck in the FliteControl wad, I'll be looking hard to get a case or two of it....
 
I waited eagerly for the advent of Federal's much-vaunted #1 buck load with FliteControl... only to find out it was a reduced recoil load. :(

Sorry, but I don't use RR loads for serious stuff. I may need a shotgun at longer range than just 'house gun' across-the-room or down-the-hall range, and I'm not starting out with a load that sacrifices performance to get less recoil. The factory lists the MV of the LE132 1B load at 1100 FPS (http://le.atk.com/general/federalproducts/shotshell/tacticalbuckshot.aspx).

Now if they'll just offer my favorite full velocity LE127 load in #1 buck in the FliteControl wad, I'll be looking hard to get a case or two of it....
I guess there is a trade-off. At HD distance, I will gladly trade a little velocity in return for less recoil and quicker target re-acquisition, especially since I consider 1B to be a more effective load than 00 anyway. Likewise, I believe that more LEO's specify LE132 00 rather than LE127 00. I do respect that your needs may be different than mine.
 
I personally know two people who went to the circus, saw the elephant, and lived to tell about it because they were armed with shotguns loaded with 00 Buckshot.

Both had Remington 870P shotguns loaded with full power 00 Buckshot (Remington Express "Greenie Meanies" in both cases), and in both cases upper torso shots with half the pellets (4-5) saying in the body and the other half exiting. One bad guy DRT, the other one stopped what he was doing, made it to the hospital, and survived emergency surgery so he could serve his prison sentence with a colostomy bag.

The moral of the story is even with full power 00 Buckshot every once in a while bad guys live, a good reason to have a SD/HD shotgun with a magazine and reduced recoil ammunition for faster follow up shots and IME tighter patterns and fewer stray pellets.

Just my .02,
LeonCarr
 
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