This Old Barrel....

[Dave McCracken]

Sm, thanks for the offer, but I'll cover this. Also, I do not plan on using a chrono. For one thing, I have none. Second, lopping off the barrel segmentally doesn't appeal to me. It's fairly well established that shortening a barrel an inch results in a loss of zero to 50 FPS until you get to about 22 inches, then the curve flattens.

Besides, while there's plenty of short barrels here, and three 30 inchers, I've none in the middle. I'd like to play with this one and see how it does for upland work.

I've wondered just what to do with Number 6 since I bought it. Without making any permanent alterations that show,since 870s this old are rarely in good condition, I think I'll set this up as an upland gun with an open choke, lighter weight, and slightly less barrel than my 30" ones for a bit quicker response.

I'll be off the range for some patterning shortly. Control loads will be some skeet loads of 9s and my current trap loads of 8s. I'll measure the max usable spread at 20 yards for starters to establish a baseline.

More later...

 

[Dave McCracken]

Back from the range and here's a surprise....

I had cogitated on the load and decided to load up a few of the lightest, slowest loads I could find.

The recipe called for, 7/8 oz of shot at a ballpark speed of 1140. Using components I use daily, I put these into old once fired AA silvers and took them to the range.

I set up at 20 yards for a couple of good reasons.

First, I wanted all the pellets on the paper.

Second,the idea I had was to measure the size of usable spread.The improvements could then be tabulated into hard data.

Third, 20 yards is good range for a cylinder bore, giving about the same results as Full choke does at 40. And, my personal history is full of 20 yard shot opps on food wearing fur and feathers. So, I did it there and then, for no reason, Reality came up and bit me.

I started looking at the pellets outside that usable spread. Some holes ran more than 2 feet from POA. Since usable spread was 17.5-20" at the distance, this meant some pellets were way out there.

I've no reason to believe ALL the pellets hit the board. More likely, there were some that completely MISSED a 4X4' target at 20 yards.

For those interested, I was using Starshot, a medium grade brand from Peru.

So on the third pattern I started counting pellets outside the pattern. That came to 54 on the paper, and who knows how many off it.

According to the chart in the Lyman book, 7/8 oz of 8s has 356 pellets. That means I KNOW about 1/7 or 14% of the load was not in the pattern.

My hunch is that having a longer cone done means some of these will stay in the pattern. So, I have to shoot a few more patterns, count all those little holes, then shoot again after the cone is done. IOW, knowing the usable spread is a good thing, but let's see if those pellets in the fringe diminish.

 

[P95Carry]

That's one heck of a spread eh ..... 54 on the paper! Bugs Bunny could walk thru that and out the other side! Fascinating stuff ....

Hey .... don't cogitate too much ... it's harmful to health!

 

[sm]

Scratches head...thinking...humm

For those interested, I was using Starshot, a medium grade brand from Peru.

Well this IS Surprising!
This is going to be educational for us all. Sounds like something I'd do.

Dave, what do you think about Duplicating that load, EXCEPT , change one little thing for me - please. Use the factory hard shot from a Win. or Rem Target load, 7/8 oz same pellet size. I'm thinking the antimony is going to be different. Try the "pliers test" on the two shot types.

Another thing I did was to use the exact same recipe...except I changed only one component and patterned each. I did see a pattern difference in only changing the primer, the wad, Chilled shot, Hard shot, even hulls.

I could understand in my testing everything else making a difference...except the primer...I didn't think it would...it did! On a shotshell ?? Yep!

 

[TrapperReady]

sm - When you were testing a lot, did you test for variance with the SAME setup? For example:

- load up 100 shells or so using the same recipe.

- split them up into random boxes of 25.

- pattern each box seperately

My gut feeling is that there is going to be some (not insignificant) amount of variance "just because". I've got a number of things to test next time I can get out for a full day... but that'll probably be another month or so.

BTW, Dave - thanks for the info. This should be an interesting thread for some time to come!

 

[sm]

Trapper...The biggest variance I ever encountered in regard to Shotguns - and still do...Is the Operator...that being ME !

After the removing Me from the equation....

I used a Single Stage Mec, I averaged powder chgs , and used the same lot #'s throughout. I tried to be very consise and use controls. Detailed notes and marked everything. Once fired hull...etc...you get the idea. I used the same gun and choke...

Yes I did note a variance attributed to the same as one would expect from Lot to Lot to purchases...EXCEPT my loads were more close and very consistent.

It is no secret I used all Winchester powders and components. I did have to got to Remington and Lawrence shot...Win shot stopped being avail locally.

We all know the inverse reaction of Ball Powder in regard to temperature...Yes this made a difference on patterns.

I kept these loads and tested in a variety of seasons / temps/ humidity ...

One of the best patterns I ever obtained was in ~ 20 - 25* and a light snow. Same load "opened up" patterns in 105* and 98% humidity.

I guess this clarifies and therefore you all now have confirmation..."Yep that boy Steve is nuts allright".

 

[Dave McCracken]

Chris, that stuff about cogitating too much will grow hair on your palms isn't true.

sm,I thought of that. Trouble is, there's absolutely NO target loads here other than my reloads. And I refuse to pay Dick's, the aptly named chain store,$6 for a box of AAs. I'm calling around looking for a bag of West Coast or other premium shot. Failing that, I'll pick up a box of STS loads from Gunz R Us on my way into work.

I admit I'm a trifle dismayed. This load, in this weather, should be trundling along at about 1125 FPS, a mild low pressure load that shouldn't spit pellets into the next Zip Code. Heaven only knows how many pellets this load loses to the Pellets Gremlins in warm weather.

About my reloading....

Wad pressure, an underestimated factor, is kept low to avoid wad crush. This one is running about 30 lbs.

Weighed charges, thrown in actual reloading cycles, vary less than .1 gr. The MEC powder baffle and good technique cause this, IMO.

Crimp depth is a hair deeper than factory, but crimps look like factory loads. With this light a load,the extra pressure from the deeper crimp is not crucial.

IMO, Mission Creep is setting in. It looks like I'll have to assemble or buy a new control load with hard shot.It also looks like I'll be firing off some rounds from another barrel to see if the problem with stray pellets is unique to this barrel.

And, while the cropping of this barrel looks well done, I may have a smith clean it up to see if that affects the results.

Oi Vay is mer....

 

[Dave McCracken]

I went through a mess of patterning target this AM. Here's the results.....

Using the same load as previously, I fired off three rounds on three targets and counted the holes in the paper but outside the 30" circle. Results were 55, 67,59.

Substituting shot cannibalized from new STS shells, I repeated the exercise. Now, the results were 34,45,36.

The pliers test had shown the Rem shot was harder. 20-couple more shot IN the pattern resulted. Possibly more, I've no idea how many shot in either load MISSED a 4X4' piece of paper at a mere 20 yards.

BTW, even the worst of these will kill quail and grouse at 25 yards if centered, maybe 30.

Next, as a control I fired off two new STS Light Target shells. 1 1/8 oz. Results were 77 and 79 flyers.

And, simply because, I mounted Frankenstein's old 21" barrel with Skeet choke and long (1 1/2") cone. Using the STS loads, 66 and 61 flyers were recorded.

IOW, even though this was not quite apples to apples, shot quality keeps more pellets in the pattern than a long cone and a modicum of choke.

Questions, comments, donations?....

 

[P95Carry]

Sounds like a fair bit of hard work Dave .... I have heard over years about shot quality affecting results but never put it to the test .. this does appear to bear that out tho for sure.

I load with ''West Coast Shot'' .. seems like the most usual to find, plus I get a good discount on it where i go ... but .. just done a plier test on a #8 .. hmmm ... not very impressive I have to say.

Did you do any counts within the 30 ring this morning? Just been wondering what the total perypheral ''loss ratio'' is. If 356 in the 7/8 load .. well, just wondering. Mind you .. counting those suckers is nearly as exciting as watchin paint dry!

Do you need some donation input? Be honest and say.

 

[sm]

IOW, even though this was not quite apples to apples, shot quality keeps more pellets in the pattern than a long cone and a modicum of choke

Well your tests confirm what we already knew, about the importance of antimony / hard shot vs Forcing cone, and choke...bbl length as well.

What was the Temperature?

See I used ball powder, I tested the same loads, same gun/choke, etc., except in the colder temps the pattern was tighter than in hotter...that inverse of powder dealie.

This is interesting and educational Dave, thank you for your troubles. I know , stealing shot is a weird feeling...but it is for R&D and T&E.

 

[Mannlicher]

There is NOTHING (well ok, almost nothing) as the launch of a new project.

 

[Dave McCracken]

Thanks guys, but I'll cover this. BTW, I mounted TOB on #6 and shot skeet with Duckman yesterday. Maybe my best scores yet, though not great.

Chris, if the density is good and the pattern not clumped so bad as to be patchy, the number of little bitty holes IN the pattern becomes superflous. Chokes and loads are inexorably linked, if shot flies outside the pattern, it cannot help reduce the bird to possession, or the clay to dust.

Modern ammo is much better than that of yesteryear. So much, in fact, that an oz of shot now does what our ancestors did with 1 1/8 or even 1 1/4. This explains the move to lighter loads.

Try the pliers test on a similar sized shot taken from a generic field load to see how it goes. The test only works relatively. West Coast runs 5-6% antimony, the Starshot maybe 3.

sm, down in the high 30s at the start, maybe up to 40 by the end.

FYI, I used shells loaded with that Starshot yesterday to shoot trap and wobble with Frank. Trap scores were 23 and 24. I choked up to Light Full. The loads held 1 1/8 oz of shot.Cheap shot will work, it takes mo' choke and mo' pellets...