Thought exercise - How would you defend yourself in this situation?

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I was wondering how one could react in this situation. I found a site on failing criminal interviews, since most try to size you up somehow before attacking; predators want easy prey. In the experience on the website, I was wondering about what she could do legally if her efforts to thwart the rapist's interview failed and he kept on coming towards her in that manner. Looking at the situation, it doesn't look like she would have been legally justified in pulling out a gun. Since he hadn't attacked her or verbally expressed the desire to do so, she couldn't use pepper spray after giving a verbal warning (or could she?). She also probably wouldn't want to get in trouble with work. But when you read what happened, it's obvious that there's a good chance she was in trouble and normal guys don't act like that, along with the author who works with cases like this on a regular basis who said she strongly believes that the woman was being interviewed. So what could she do legally if she did everything she did to fail the rapist's interview but it still didn't work?

This is the article:
http://www.rapeescape.com/interview.htm
A Successful "Failure" of a Pre-Attack Interview

Failing your next interview can be a good self-defense strategy in preventing a rape and possibly save your life.

Because they are more "predatory" in nature than "opportunistic" (although there are certainly rapes that occur during the commission of another crime simply because the opportunity presents itself -- like say, during a burglary -- the majority of attacks are planned) rapists are on the lookout for their next victim.

Part of that game is to identify potential victims. One element of that process is to simply observe or case situations where women might be available and alone. Remember that the vast majorities of rapes are committed by someone who is acquainted with you and your situation. I'm not saying they are friends with you, just that they've seen you, they know where you work, live or shop.

Another element in their game is to "interview" you to see if you are going to make a good victim.

Let's examine a pre-attack situation that Charlotte found herself in.

Charlotte works at a construction site for a new retail location in one of the trailers that houses two high-level managers of the project. Much of the day she is alone in the office.

She tearfully recounted her situation to me:

She heard someone coming up the wooden steps to the front door of the trailer and got up from her desk to meet the visitor in the main room of the trailer because she "doesn't like to feel trapped" in her office in the back.

An unfamiliar man entered, wearing a construction hard hat. His first question to her, "Are you here alone?" Immediately Charlotte's alarm bells went off.

She ignored the question and firmly asked "How may I help you?"

He asked if this was the trailer for another project that he named. The project he mentioned is an actual project that is up the road from the project Charlotte is working on. She said it was not and they he would have to drive north to reach the project.

He advanced toward her with his next question, "Well, can I buy some of the merchandise from (the soon to be completed retail operation)?"

She told me she was becoming quite fearful at this point because this guy was clearly advancing on her with intent. He then asked if he could buy some of the photos that were framed and on display in the office. She countered his question firmly and told him they did not have what he wanted there.

She confessed to me that even though she countered his questions firmly, her heart was pounding and she began to edge toward the back door of the trailer hoping she could escape before the visitor could grab her.

As Charlotte backed up, he advanced toward her again, his eyes locked on hers. Then he pointed through the window on the back door and said, "Do I need to go there (toward the other project) to get the (merchandise)?

Now, Charlotte is terrified. She recounted she "knew" he was going to reach out and grab her and she literally did not know what she was going to do next. Charlotte wisely did not follow the man's gesture toward the window. She continued to look directly at him and this time stated with finality, "We have nothing to do with what you want."

She said the guy gave her a particular look and then laughed in a derisive way. "I think he knew he had me scared and he was laughing at me," she told me. She was visibly shaken and crying as she recalled the situation.

The man then walked back out the front door, stopping along the way to take one of Charlotte's business cards before he left.

Whew. Charlotte had successfully "failed" an interview.

I've known this woman for a couple of years. She is tough, wise and very good at reading people. She tearfully recounted the situation and said that her overriding thought during this situation was that of, "oh my God, this is how it happens. It's happening to me right now and I don't know what to do next." I definitely think she was being interviewed in a pre-attack scenario.

This guy was probably someone who made deliveries to the construction sites or was someone who had business on the site. She said he was "comfortable" being on the site and felt he knew his way around. Obviously, he knew Charlotte was alone in the trailer and his first question was aimed at confirming this. His pattern of asking a string of questions in order to close the distance between him and her is classic. The fact that he wouldn't take no for an answer is also a classic pattern.

However, Charlotte did everything right. She didn't confirm that she was alone. She didn't act flustered with his changing questions. She didn't take her eyes off of him even when he pointed out the window. She thinks he laughed at her because he knew he had scared her. I think he laughed because he knew that she knew what his game was and didn't act like a victim (despite her being petrified with fear on the inside).

His emotional blackmail at the end of the encounter was to take her business card in gesture of "I know who you are and I can come back and hurt you if you tell anyone".

In the upcoming book, "Fight Like a Girl", I present two other true cases of women who were interviewed previous to an attack. In both, the predator uses a series of questions to engage the woman. Most of the time attackers will be very, very good at engaging you. Chances are they have done it before and are a good judge of character. Some of the interviews you face weekly from strange men might literally be practice interviews from predators honing their craft. Others are just from jerks trying to engage you as an attractive woman.

The interviews might seem innocuous to the casual observer and are easily denied by the interviewer. For example, the opening gambit usually takes the form of a common question like, "What time do you have?" or "Are you from around here?" Don't be surprised whatever it is. A common question still is to ask for a light or a cigarette. Interestingly, in one of the cases I have in the book, the attacker uses a misdirection move by pointing inside a car to distract the victim. This is similar to the misdirection move Charlotte's attacker used when he pointed out the window. In the case of the guy pointing into the car, the victim said she instinctively followed his gesture and he used his other hand to grab her hair and slam her head against the edge of the car roof. In Charlotte's case, she wisely did not take her eyes off the guy, even though he was gesturing out the window.

In some East Coast cities, a popular way to engage someone (often to pickpocket them) is to squirt ketchup or mustard from one of the small packets available at fast-food restaurants onto a victim's coat. When they tell you about it, you are going to be occupied looking at your coat, taking off your coat and trying to wipe the ketchup off. They might even just say you have ketchup on you coat, whether you do or not. One woman on the East Coast reported that this happened to her, but she had heard of the scam before and did not fall for it. When two people approached her and told her she had ketchup on her coat, she clutched her purse tightly to her body and backed up, keeping her eyes on the two. She said it was humorous to see them continuously offer to hold her purse while she checked her coat. She did neither and told the men to leave her alone. "I'm still mad they ruined a good coat, though," she said.

If someone pays you a compliment completely out of the blue, be suspicious. If someone makes an attempt to appeal to your vanity by asking if you are a model, actress, dancer, etc. -- be suspicious. If someone asks you a series of questions and continues to press -- BE ON GUARD! Often the questions don't even make sense or aren't related. If the guy will not take "no" for an answer to anything -- step back and keep your distance, YOU ARE BEING INTERVIEWED.

Don't feel compelled to answer questions, give money or thank strangers for compliments. Nice guys would not dream of violating your space or sensibilities by trying these ruses.

Just say, "Leave me alone, I have no business with you." (Check out both the soft and hard challenge in Rape Escape Level 1).

Don't worry about what they think, it doesn't make you an bad person just because you don't play into their game.

I'd say it makes you a smart person.
 
"Don't worry about what they think, it doesn't make you an bad person just because you don't play into their game..."

That's half the battle right there.

Too many people don't want to "offend" anyone, even when their gut instinct tells them they are not in a good situation. When it comes to personal security in potentially violent situations, it is far better to err on the side of offensive and rude, than nice and needing and needing an ambulance.

In one on one situations, it's your word vs. theirs in court, and as we all know, tis better to be judged by 12...
 
Gotta be more pro-active!

When he started to close the gap after repeating that he had the wrong place, she needed to tell him to back up and get out. Need to have the tools and training to back it up though of which women rarely do.

90% of women are not going to do what it takes to be prepared to meet force with force, that's why they are easy pickins for BGs.

How many women you know carry a weapon ON them? Not in their purse, not in the desk drawer, but one that they are trained to produce in the time it takes to close the gap of 6ft?

None that I know of. I know a lot of guys that have a folder clipped in their front pocket though. See the issue?
 
I love a good Gedankenexperiment.

In this case I think Charlotte did well. The story does not say whether or not she called the cops on the creep but I hope it would have been easy enough to get the guy's tags.

I find it astonishing that anyone would find the question "Are you alone" innocuous. What possible friendly motivation could there be for this question?
 
Offending people.

Our society puts so much stock in not offending folks that we are polite when we should be rude and angry. This isn't any one persons fault, the "guilty" people (men as well as women) are doing what we've been conditioned to. The original post and Mr.Z make the point, rightly, that when your gut says to step up, tell the other party where to get off. Compliance is not a cure for much of anything.
 
I was wondering how one could react in this situation.

The guy could have done anything he wanted to her yet he did nothing bad whatsoever. I see such paranoia on occasion. I don't laugh at people like that but I do smile and try to help them realize with "small talk" that they are safe around me. Sounds to me like exactly the same kind of thing he did. There's not much else you can do when a sheep thinks you're a wolf that wants to eat them.
 
Why didn't she keep the door locked if she's there alone? I'm sure the office mates wouldn't mind unlocking the door as they come and go. It's an office, not a retail business. Not to mention that construction work attracts a certain "element" also. She should have controlled access to herself. Honestly, the guy probably lacked social skills and was just hitting on her. If he had been a rapist, she would have been raped.
 
If he had been a rapist, she would have been raped.

This guy's behavior might not be illegal, but it's definitely consistent with known behavior of how many sexual assaults begin. I've read in so many places from so many experts that say that this is how men act before sexual assault occurs on a stranger or someone they're only acquainted with. Also remember Marc MacYoung's five stages of violent crime. And no matter what system you use for determining if an attack is going to happen, almost everywhere agrees that some form of sizing up a potential victim (whether verbally or silently) and positioning almost always occur. I bring up this thought exercise because quite often violent assault/battery situations are not so cut and dry right before they occur. I believe this is a good topic for Strategies and Tactics.

The guy could have done anything he wanted to her yet he did nothing bad whatsoever.

That's the thing, he hadn't done anything illegal (yet), and so she wouldn't want to get in trouble legally or with her business. At the same time she wouldn't want to just wait until the sexual assault is occuring to do anything. So what could she have done in this situation if he would have still continued with what he was doing? Marc MacYoung has his Pyramid of Personal Safety to avoid physical confrontation and lawsuits: .... awareness, maneuvering and positioning, knowledge of self-worth and boundaries, verbal boundary enforcement, and last is physical self-defense. The woman seems to have within reason done everything but the last two; she especially did well with maneuvering and positioning. So would it be best for her to thrust her hands out, palms out, and shout "STOP! BACK OFF! LEAVE!" while backing up what little she could (might look good in a court of law)? Then if he came any closer, try her non-lethal self-defense moves on him? Such as pepper spray, I was thinking about air taser (if it's legal where she's at) but then I thought that that may too dramatic? Or would another strategy be better, or would it be best to do nothing until an actual battery is occurring? I'm just looking for self-defense strategies that can be used in the real world and am using what I ran into as a thought exercise. If there's someone who's following Marc MacYoung's stages of violent crime in a situation where most normal people wouldn't be acting that way and I follow Marc's pyramid of personal safety and then give a strong verbal boundary enforcement, I'm going to have a real problem with the person coming within two arm's lengths of me. I want to be safe, but at the same time don't want to be in legal trouble for using non-lethal force.
 
Check out SouthNarcs video or class on keeping distance. The important part is to leave the reactionary gap and escalate the verbal and provide a "physical" barrier or "fence" with the hands up.

Then know how to do some h2h to get to your GUN. Pepper spray is worthless, I repeat worthless!

Knife or gun.
 
What about trespassing of person

If this woman did give a strong verbal boundary enforcement with the hands up, palms out, and taking some steps backward, and the guy continued with what he was doing and got within two arm's length's from her and she then used non-lethal force before he could get any closer, could she claim that she was using it to prevent assault? I looked at Wikipedia's "Common Assault" reference http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_assault . It said that common assault is when you engage in behavior that would make a "reasonable person" apprehend that unwanted physical contact or injury is about to occur, so everyday normal social behaviors don't count. It also says that if the person happen's to be paranoid and the other person is aware of the psychological problem and engages in the unwanted behavior to exploit or embarrass, then that may be considered as assault. So if she puts up a strong verbal boundary enforcement, hands up and palms out, takes some steps back, and he continues what he was doing, wouldn't a reasonable person believe that their behavior is making another feel very physically threatened? Could this woman use the defense that she used her non-lethal force as a defense against assault and also get the guy in trouble?

Or could she argue legally that the construction worker was committing a trespass of person, since necessity and consent would be violated in a situation like this if she put up a strong verbal boundary enforcement and he kept advancing in that manner?
 
Classically, truly slick predators will NOT tip their hand by displaying a weapon or engage in identifiably hostile behaviors until they have closed the distance and are within arms reach. They seek to strike from close in, using jury proof ambiguity and surprise to maximal advantage. They will start their patter after they're well within Tueller distance, and will continue until they're right next to you.

Never underestimate the power of your own voice. Disregard the questionable person's agenda, and implement your own. Issue short, pointed directives. "Stay on the other side of the counter, please.", "I cannot help you, you must leave now", and similiar.

This turns the table, and puts them into the position of either backing off, or tipping their hand.

At some point in the process, you need to raise your hand and say firmly, "that's close enough", and visibly prepare to flee or fight before the window of opportunity closes. That means you need to be way, way ahead of the curve.

A decent person will recognize what's going on and back off. If not, I think it fair to assume bad faith.

Flight should be your first option. Sure, you might look silly if the alarm was false, but on the other hand, someone who makes the slightest move to prevent your flight has crossed over the line into hostility, at which point it's game on, all bets are off.
 
Thank you very much for posting this. I get very frustrated sometimes when my girlfriend tells me about some weirdo that approached her.

I do my best to be patient in telling her that she has zero obligation to engage them in any kind of decent way, but I'm worried I may come across as jealous or paranoid. It's very good to have this other perspective on the situation. I sent here the link and encouraged her to explore the site.

Again, thank you.
 
nothing puts "command" into a command voice like the ability to back it up with lethal violence. I was once harrassed by a street punk for money, while I was walking with my little daughter. (5 yr old). I put my left hand up in the classic "stop" position , looked him in the eye and said , quite calmly but distinctly, "stop right there". He stopped like he had walked into a light pole. I think he knew he was one step from staring down a muzzle.
The point is, all the other stuff might work, but when the bluffs get called, the ability to apply force is what decides the encounter.
 
Backup for verbal boundary enforcement

geekWithA.45, so how do you know when it would be ok to move into physical self-defense mode and if it would be ok to, and know how to defend yourself in any legal battles? I often hear about maintaining strong verbal boundary enforcement by first giving a soft verbal challenge "You're getting too close for my comfort" and then if that doesn't work a strong verbal challenge "STOP! BACK OFF!" with hands out, palms out, while taking a few steps back. But I don't hear about what to do as backup if verbal boundary enforcement doesn’t happen to work. Quite a few people say that unless someone’s verbally threatening you or displaying a weapon in advance, you have to wait until they're actually grabbing or hitting you before you can use non-lethal force. However, when I read that: most assailants are predators who wait until they get very close to their prey before attacking; those statistics on THR how most people knife stabs aren't known until it's too late; and that most armed robbers wait until they're close to pull out their deadly weapon, I'm not sure if it's wise to wait until they're that close, especially if they're displaying "sizing you up" and "position to be able to attack you easier" behavior. So I was wondering if it's practical and legal to first try avoiding the situation; then if that doesn't work, give strong boundary enforcement (very strong voice, hands up, palms out, take steps backward); then if that doesn't work, use non-lethal force so that you don't have to wait to see if he's going to pound you to the ground or pull out a knife after he's already positioned himself to attack? I was also wondering: if you have enough room to run, then that would be smart; however, if you don’t and you’re doing the palms out thing, would it be safe to run because someone can cause more damage if they attack from behind than from the front?
 
Guy,
If your space is invaded after you have made it clear in a loud verbal manner to stay out of it with body language included, then it's time to pre-empt him and get out of there if you can or finish the fight if he's still bringing it on.

I just finished a weekend of SIMMS and FoF with SouthNarc a month ago and in one of the final evolutions of a panhandler trying to crowd in I was one of the few that did not get taken down by the attack because I "drew line" in my minds eye of where his final encroachment was going to be.

I had already been polite, already had told him to stay back, but when I gave a command voice to "STAY BACK" I remember telling myself "one more step and he gets it!" He took the step and I caught him totally off guard and unbalanced even though he knew I was going to react somehow.

Clip of above evolution you can't hear the commands but you can see the line drawn when I set my weight and go forward on him right at the start.

You gotta draw a line and stay with it. Many kept repeating their commands hoping they would obey, EVEN though they knew an attack was imminent.

In most states you need to have "fear of great harm" and a reasonable person would assume that is his intent if he keeps coming, especially after such an interview.

Get some hands on training in unknown contact management, it's worth more than any range time or SD class you will ever attend.
 
geekWithA.45, so how do you know when it would be ok to move into physical self-defense mode and if it would be ok to, and know how to defend yourself in any legal battles?

The first thing to understand is that you ARE ALREADY IN SELF DEFENSE MODE from the moment you notice a potential danger.

Self defense begins with awareness. From there, it becomes a dynamic, swirly thing, but it includes the verbalizations, body positioning, the whole 9 yards.

The key to lawyer and jury proofing your personal defense is to be able to show that while you attempted to DEescalate, the assailant ESCalated.

DEescalating does NOT mean that you are giving up the INITIATIVE.

The assaillant has already taken the initiative by opening with whatever it was that set off your proximity and hostility alarms. Your actions then follow a pattern of re-establishing initiative, holding a reasonable personal perimeter, (by withdrawing, if possible) and nullifying whatever hostile action is taking form (by telling them to back off, go away, etc).

During this process, you should be able to articulate, at least after the fact, why you, as a reasonable person, believed that your life or bodily integrity is in danger of imminent attack, and why you believed that retreat was either undertaken, or infeasible.

Where it gets sticky is the issue of whether you're confronted with mere force, or lethal force. You may meet force with force, and lethal force with lethal force.

Remember the definition of lethal force: You may presume you are threatened with lethal force when 3 criteria are satisfied:

Means, Proximity, and Jeopardy.

Means: Either a significant disparity of physical force (burly construction worker vs petite woman, known kung fu master vs regular joe, any mob or group of people vs anyone) or a weapon that could reasonably cause death or serious bodily injury. (Any blade, bat, pipe, brick, rock, firearm)

Proximity: That is, the RANGE in which to employ said weapon. With projectile weapons, proximity is assumed. With melee weapons, 21 feet, (lookup Teuller Drill)

Jeopardy: The actor must be behaving in a way that you are placed into imminent danger. This part gets a little fuzzy, when it comes to people behaving in an articulably hostile manner in close proximity who start making furtive movements to the belt or other areas where they could plausibly be hiding a weapon. It becomes definite when a hostile actor's drawn gun's muzzle starts swinging in your direction.


Meeting mere force, or what an actor could plausibly deny as mere force with lethal force gets very sticky. For example, you can't shoot someone who has placed his hand on your shoulder, and grabbed it slightly. It might just be a guy trying to get your attention to ask for directions using semi-rude means.

You _might_ be OK, and your jury will decide this, if you shot him after he placed his hand on your shoulder after displaying a threatening, beligerent pattern of behavior that culminated with a shoulder grab and a furtive movement to the belt line, or your neck.

It all comes down to what a reasonable person would believe about the situation.

Your jury is presumed to be composed of reasonable people.

A few other points: A self defense defense basically means that you are telling the court, "yeah, I employed lethal force on the guy (whether he actually died or not), and I was legally justified in doing so."

Another important element of legal justification is actual innocence. In other words, you cannot claim self defense if you are a party to a confrontation. You must be basically minding your own business, and be intruded upon.

Note also that withdrawing closes an encounter, and pursuit opens another encounter. (Ie: you get into an argument with a guy that starts escalating towards a fight, realize that it's stupid, and leave. End of that encounter, wherein you are a party to the confrontation, and your claim of self defense is probably void. The guy chases you out into the parking lot, and both resumes and escalates the argument. That's a new encounter, and your claim of self defense is renewed)
 
One point that hasn't been made is that a site radio is the norm in construction trailers. Whether it's a Nextel phone or a Motorola radio. It would have been easy for her to say, "Wait right there. I'll get one of the guys to show you where it is." This establishes that he's to stop, that she isn't truely alone and that she's in contorl.

It isn't good to assume that a rapist is like a "normal" attacker. Their psychology is different from ours. They're interested in control and power and want the victem to follow a script. If the potential victem doesn't follow their mental script it may cause them to break off and look for someone that will.

I took SouthNarc's course. The verbal "fence" starts out as being civil and then becomes forceful and commanding if the initial barrier is crossed. "Wait right there while I get the boss" changes to "Back the *UCK UP!" if civil didn't work.
 
Like I said from the start... be pro-active. Victims are chosen because they are submissive or unaware by nature.

The fact that the lady was balling retelling the story says a lot about her mindset.
 
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In some East Coast cities, a popular way to engage someone (often to pickpocket them) is to squirt ketchup or mustard from one of the small packets available at fast-food restaurants onto a victim's coat. When they tell you about it, you are going to be occupied looking at your coat, taking off your coat and trying to wipe the ketchup off. They might even just say you have ketchup on you coat, whether you do or not.

Dude this happened to me in Mexico. Lucky my bag was locked, but my friend's wallet was taken, credit card stolen, and wallet slipped back into his pocket without him knowing until the end.
 
Sidebar: How my sister caught a pickpocket.

While on the train from Charles deGaul airport to Paris, a favorite haunt of pickpockets, she unzipped her purse to fumble with something. Moments before the train rolled to her stop, she zipped it back up, trapping the pickpocket's hand in the purse. During the moment they were regarding each other, figuring out their next move, the door opened, to reveal a policeman on the platform.

BG---->Jail. :)

Sister: indescribably lucky.
 
Sounds like he was having fun being a creep trying to scare her.
That's always an umcomfortable situation when you don't know someones agenda, and you don't want to move to quick or too slow.

I think some guys just don't excercise common sense when approaching women..especially in a secluded area. There have been a few times a man has gone out of his way to let me know that he was 'non-threating'. Just one example a cable/phone guy knocked on my door letting me know he was fixing something. He said he didn't want me to get suspicious or worried that some strange man was in my yard. Could probably save alot of grief if others just were more mindful.
 
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