thoughts on this? ccw instruction.

Status
Not open for further replies.

Axis II

Member
Joined
Jul 2, 2015
Messages
7,179
I would like you guys insight on this one.

As you all may know i belong to a hunt club that allows members to close the range down for parties, etc for a fee of about $50-70. My friend became a Police firearms instructor this past week and mentioned doing ccw classes. He says his instructors certification allows him to do so and he would like me to ask about closing the range down every few months to do a class of about 10 people and that he would charge $100 per person and split it with me if i helped as a RO. Before anyone gets all up in arms about me being upset about the range closing down and now us wanting to do the same we were pretty much told that's the way it is, like it or leave so i guess i have to join them. Below are my concerns.

1) I mentioned liability to him and he says what liability? I said what if someone gets hurt and he says 10ppl max 2-3 people watching them as RO.

2) I don't have a RO certification but i do hold a Police firearms training certificate, 20hr initial class with 8hr re-qualification yearly. I think i know what I'm doing. lol. Do you have to be a certified RO to do this?

3) The club currently has a CCW instructor who charges $100 per person and gives the club $50 to use the facility just like everyone else. Now, this is hear say but i was told he gives $50 of each student to the club. I cannot see this guy doing this because what profit is he making? I was also told he must use his insurance for the classes and not the clubs insurance. Again, all hear say but it makes sense to me seeing how greedy the club is.

4) I was concerned they would not allow it due to having a board member (25yr member) already doing the classes. My buddy says when you pay to rent the club and range its closed for you and whoever correct? I said yes, they do grad parties, family reunions, etc. He says how is it any of their business if we are doing a ccw class or a family reunion? The other guy cant teach them all and this would be people we found for the class and not dipping into his pool of people.

Your thoughts?
 
ohihunter2014

Recalling some of the other "episodes" you've had with this gun club I think the club member who already teaches CCW classes might take umbrage at having another person doing the same. Maybe see first if this is okay (ask around to see if when you rent the range it's yours for whatever shooting activity you have planned), and then proceed from there. I would definitely recommend getting PI and RSO certification as Curator suggested and having all the liability insurance you can get. Let us know how this all plays out.
 
My friend became a Police firearms instructor this past week and mentioned doing ccw classes. He says his instructors certification allows him to do so and he would like me to ask about closing the range down every few months to do a class of about 10 people and that he would charge $100 per person and split it with me if i helped as a RO.

The club currently has a CCW instructor who charges $100 per person and gives the club $50 to use the facility just like everyone else. Now, this is hear say but i was told he gives $50 of each student to the club. I cannot see this guy doing this because what profit is he making? I was also told he must use his insurance for the classes and not the clubs insurance. Again, all hear say but it makes sense to me seeing how greedy the club is.

It makes sense to me, and not because I think the club is greedy. Renting the club for a party is different than renting it to make money. I'd assume you would be charged the same as the other instructor doing classes for a profit. I help with Hunter safety and make very little or no money from it. If there is any greed going on here, it's expecting to make $475 for helping supervise ten students in a ten hour class.

He says how is it any of their business if we are doing a ccw class or a family reunion?

It's their range....their property, their business. You don't think they are going to ask what you're renting it for? You think they are only going to charge you 1/10th the price as they charge a 25 year board member? Wouldn't that same board member have to approve the use? You really think they are not going to know what's going on there? You complain here about them treating you as an outsider, yet you want to cheat your club and lie to the board.

JMHO....be upfront and be willing to do as the other instructor does. Maybe your friend and the other instructor could do classes together and provide the same service for twice the people. Maybe the club would allow you two to do the class for what you want to do it, but lying and cheating them isn't the way. The ethics in hunting and hunt clubs goes deeper than just how you take a killing shot. Just sayin'......
 
It makes sense to me, and not because I think the club is greedy. Renting the club for a party is different than renting it to make money. I'd assume you would be charged the same as the other instructor doing classes for a profit. I help with Hunter safety and make very little or no money from it. If there is any greed going on here, it's expecting to make $475 for helping supervise ten students in a ten hour class.



It's their range....their property, their business. You don't think they are going to ask what you're renting it for? You think they are only going to charge you 1/10th the price as they charge a 25 year board member? Wouldn't that same board member have to approve the use? You really think they are not going to know what's going on there? You complain here about them treating you as an outsider, yet you want to cheat your club and lie to the board.

JMHO....be upfront and be willing to do as the other instructor does. Maybe your friend and the other instructor could do classes together and provide the same service for twice the people. Maybe the club would allow you two to do the class for what you want to do it, but lying and cheating them isn't the way. The ethics in hunting and hunt clubs goes deeper than just how you take a killing shot. Just sayin'......
I would be asking the president before i proceeded with anything.

The greed comment was directed towards them at first not allowing him to do this until he offered to donate more proceeds to the club and then they were all for it. I'm still suspect on that one though because one class only raised $200. I wouldn't bother setting up a class for 4ppl. By laws don't say anything about using the club for profit.
 
Last edited:
ohihunter2014

Recalling some of the other "episodes" you've had with this gun club I think the club member who already teaches CCW classes might take umbrage at having another person doing the same. Maybe see first if this is okay (ask around to see if when you rent the range it's yours for whatever shooting activity you have planned), and then proceed from there. I would definitely recommend getting PI and RSO certification as Curator suggested and having all the liability insurance you can get. Let us know how this all plays out.
Thank you @bannockburn I told my buddy i would ask the club president first before proceeding with anything. I'm pretty sure he did the same thing we wanted too before the old ccw guy quit the club cause he rented the range at least every 2 months until the other guy quit. We would in no way be trying to steel his clientele, just do the classes for people in our circle and their family. The current guy has stuff posted all over town and Facebook we would just tell some friends hey if you want it hes ex special forces, swat, etc you will get a lot of instruction for $100. I am currently looking into the RO classes.
 
I could definitely see them having an issue with what you and your friend are trying to do given they already do the same thing. But hey, you can certainly ask.

As for the RSO training and insurance, get both.
 
I have been doing exactly what you described for over a decade. Here are a few insights.

1. YOU HAVE TO HAVE Insurance!!!! One lawsuit can bankrupt you
The only affordable insurance out there is NRA insurance and it is for NRA instructors.

2. The old instructor will, almost certainly, not be happy. No business likes competition.

3. Training civilians is different from training policemen. Police have a duty to respond, civilians have a duty to evade Police are usually already familiar with firearms, civilians are not. Civilians have often been taught wrong and/or dangerous habits by other civilians

4. If your friend isn't worried about these things then I would suggest that you reconsider the plan.

IronHand
 
He as an instructor should be fully aware of the liability insurance available to him. Special risk insurance can also be purchased separately to cover the specific events. I assume the hunt club has some liability insurance coverage, but I also assume, having been involved with such policies myself, they would NOT cover for-profit training events not specifically a part of the club and involving non-members.

I would recommend you do get at least an RO/RSO certification on your own as well - lots of NRA Chief RSO’s out there which can get you trained in, which would then give you access to your own policy as well. NRA BoPS instructor certification might be worth your time, might not. You do have a required currency in instructing BoPS, and have to follow their curriculum and philosophy, which may not be of interest to you.
 
I wouldn’t do it without insurance coverage. If you can get that though it would be a nice way to make some money, I would do it. And unless the club is offering the class directly it should not be a conflict of interest that another club member is also doing classes.
 
I could definitely see them having an issue with what you and your friend are trying to do given they already do the same thing. But hey, you can certainly ask.

As for the RSO training and insurance, get both.
I am 90% sure the current guy did what we were planning before he became a board member. the old ccw guy quit the club and I think he was a ccw business and just used the club (non member) and now he's gone and the current guy gets in now he does them. I remember when I first started the club he had the range closed the most out of everyone so I think someone was double dipping. I also found out today he teaches at several other clubs and uses their ranges so im not feeling so bad now by asking.
 
I wouldn’t do it without insurance coverage. If you can get that though it would be a nice way to make some money, I would do it. And unless the club is offering the class directly it should not be a conflict of interest that another club member is also doing classes.
club offers the ones the current guy does. He uses their address and what not for contact info. I would just tell some friends meet me here at this time, etc.
 
He as an instructor should be fully aware of the liability insurance available to him. Special risk insurance can also be purchased separately to cover the specific events. I assume the hunt club has some liability insurance coverage, but I also assume, having been involved with such policies myself, they would NOT cover for-profit training events not specifically a part of the club and involving non-members.

I would recommend you do get at least an RO/RSO certification on your own as well - lots of NRA Chief RSO’s out there which can get you trained in, which would then give you access to your own policy as well. NRA BoPS instructor certification might be worth your time, might not. You do have a required currency in instructing BoPS, and have to follow their curriculum and philosophy, which may not be of interest to you.
I know they require him to use his insurance but its odd too when they do public shoots everyone is required to sign a waiver they will not hold the club, members or staff liable. I will tell him to look into the NRA insurance.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top