Ccw/self defense ammuntion ??? For ccw instructors & police

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I don't agree with these arguements or statements, but this is what the CCW instructors will tell you the prosecuting DA's and civil attorneys will bring up in court against you.

It's a lot of nonsense. There are a few solid arguments for using accepted hollowpoint factory ammunition. One is that the loads are more reliable than handloads. Another is that the loads are from a batch that has been independently calibrated and can permit a broader range of expert testimony. Finally, they are designed for the purpose. But picking ammunition based on the advice of people who know NOTHING about the rules of evidence and are not lawyers is foolish.

In other words, you guys are obsessing about the wrong things. Don't worry so much about what ammo you use. Pick something reliable and effective. You SHOULD worry about knowing when deadly force may be used under the law of your state.

As far as lawsuits, anyone can sue anyone for anything. So again don't worry about it.
 
Our CCW instructor told us to use only hollow point amuntion that has been clearly designed and marketed by the manufacturer for police use and personal defense, and that would be even better to carry the exact same caliber and ammunition that your local PD or State Police issue.

If you have to use the same ammo, don't you have to use the same gun as well?

How do you determine what LEO agency from whom you should borrow their standards? The questions you may need resolved before doing so concern how that agency made its determination and if the circumstances of the officers using the ammo are the same as yours. Chances are, they are not. Of course, that really only matters if they are using ammo that is less effective.

Ammo and guns are often decided upon, in part, by budgetary bean counters, not necessarily that a given ammo had better stopping power or better car penetration power.

Even if you like the ammo your local department uses, is it really the same ammo you can buy commerically? While the bullet may be the same, the loading of the ammo may be custom per department standards. You may not be able to actually commercially buy what your local department is using.

So the local dept. has chosen ammo and you can buy it. Cool. Is it really the best for you? Is your circumstance similar enough that making the same choice in ammo is merited? Your given street officer carries, at least two spare magazines, is in direct radio contact with help and can call for help and have been respond at top speed from miles around, wears body armor, may be carrying a rifle or shotgun in the cruiser, etc. How about you? Do you carry that much spare ammo? If something goes wrong and you have to call 911, is very available officer from miles around going to converge on your location or is the 911 operator going to prioritize your call and route it to a specific cruiser or two that on average will be at least 5 minutes distant and maybe 2-4 times more distant? Do you wear body armor?

Some departments have gone with a given gun and/or caliber because it is a good overall fit for a wider variety of shooters. Do you want to be limited to a given caliber, say 9mm, simply because a department has found that it is more readily shot well by the general population of recruits? Maybe if you aren't skilled or practiced, it may be a very good choice for you. Maybe you are skilled and would like something more powerful that you feel would do a better job protecting you. Well, now you are sort of screwed by limitations that don't really apply to you.

While not CCW, our local cops can carry rifles and they choose AR15s, though the sidearms and ammo are quite varied as long as they are okayed from a list of viable alternatives. Interestingly, the AR15s for the SWAT guys are loaded with 35 gr. Hornady TAP ammo? Why? Is it because they want the best stopping power? Not hardly? The choice of the ammo is to minimize overpenetration concerns. The logic is that there is more risk of over penetration hurting a 3rd party or other officer than there is risk to the officer from the bad guy because the officer is wearing body armor, will likely be backed up by one or more other officers, and will be able to put multiple rounds on the target that will have a combined effect of producing the necessary stop. I found that very interesting and when I asked the SWAT guys who gave use the presentation about their work if they loaded 35 gr. ammo at home, not a single one did. Granted, it was just 3 members of the team, but the result was 100%.

So what if the ammo that the local cops use isn't ammo that works well in your gun? Do you then have to use ammo that is less than reliable for your self defense because it might have less legal implications for you later.

So when you use the local LEO ammo decisions, are you really making the best choice for your personal physical safety or are you just piggybacking on the bean counter's budgetary decision for some pretty good ammo? Maybe you are piggybacking on some department's legal concerns of doing more harm to bystanders than to actually protecting officers.

The notion of using what the local cops use does not take into account that there are differences in ammo, calibers, etc., and does not take into account that the first business of shooting in self defense is to survive the battle. The notion of using what the cops use assumes that it will be sufficient for you, will be a good fit for you, that it will allow you to be victorious, and that your concern really is just with possible legal aftermaths.

If you are truly that concerned with possible legal aftermaths, then don't believe gun writers, cops, and CCW instructors. Take the time and find your attorney right now and discuss that matter with the attorney and you do what the person who will be defending you in court says is the best thing to do. That attorney may or may not agree with your CCW instructor, but your CCW instructor isn't going to defend you in court, is he?

The point here is that going with the notion of using what the local cops use comes with a whole lot of unstated assumptions and some of those assumptions could have a negative impact on your survival.
 
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It's a lot of nonsense........ picking ammunition based on the advice of people who know NOTHING about the rules of evidence and are not lawyers is foolish.

In other words, you guys are obsessing about the wrong things. Don't worry so much about what ammo you use. Pick something reliable and effective. You SHOULD worry about knowing when deadly force may be used under the law of your state.



.....exactly. One should use whatever ammo is most accurate in their gun and what they themselves fell most confident with. A justified shoot is a justified shoot. Our local D.A. uses handloads in his SD gun. So do I.
 
Look at what Griz, and many others are saying

this XR guy has been putting out this questionable point, which if he lives in certain states (that many of us wouldn't live in) MIGHT have a little validity, and spoiling for a fight with OT content on a number of threads. If your state has Castle Doctrine Laws, Ignore xr1200,

But, the main thing is to have quality ammo that works in your gun, read up, look at what LE and major players use, check out the ballistics forums, like http://brassfetcher.com/
(and there is a HUGE HEADACHE if you try to track the math and opinions and keep they separate and straight)

The main thing is to find something that you can shoot enough of to make sure they work in YOUR GUN and that you can afford.
That said, the new federals, I think HST, seem to have a following, or at least a lot of marketing, some of the HP's available for reloading are quite affordable, especially if you consider what you pay for 'premium' ammo.
 
What about the Hornady Critical Defense which is suppose to be for thick clothing like denim or leather and or Corbon Power Ball ammo?
 
Most police service ammo has already passed legal requiremnts in a court of law during justified cop shootings, this sets legal presidence, that will actually help you in your defense.

Passed legal requirements in court? What legal requirements are those?

FMJ - even though it is acceptable military round approved according to the Geneva Convention
Have you read the Geneva Convention? Care to cite the passage(s) about FMJ?
 
It's a lot of nonsense. There are a few solid arguments for using accepted hollowpoint factory ammunition. One is that the loads are more reliable than handloads. Another is that the loads are from a batch that has been independently calibrated and can permit a broader range of expert testimony. Finally, they are designed for the purpose. But picking ammunition based on the advice of people who know NOTHING about the rules of evidence and are not lawyers is foolish.

In other words, you guys are obsessing about the wrong things. Don't worry so much about what ammo you use. Pick something reliable and effective. You SHOULD worry about knowing when deadly force may be used under the law of your state.

As far as lawsuits, anyone can sue anyone for anything. So again don't worry about it.
Well said. Any factory ammo by a known manufacture will do. A person needs to read up on the laws in his or hers state to be informed on a justified shooting to defend ones life.
Howard
 
When I teach CCW classes, the ammunition lecture is fairly brief, but I say to use a high-quality hollowpoint ammunition and provide a list of reputable brands, i.e. Speer Gold Dot, Federal HST and Hydra-Shok, Winchester Ranger, Remington Golden Saber, Cor-Bon DPX, etc.

We teach to leave FMJ ammo at the range due to reduced effectiveness and increased likelihood of overpenetration [Because one of the main points we teach is that if you pull the trigger, your responsibility ends when the bullet does, no matter where that may be].

We also say it's best to leave handloads for hunting and the range, as it makes ballistic testing by law enforcement difficult and can mess up gunshot residue testing. Needing to use a gun is unlikely and gunshot residue or ballistic testing being the deciding factor between a justified or unjustified shoot is less likely, but why risk it?
 
We also say it's best to leave handloads for hunting and the range, as it makes ballistic testing by law enforcement difficult and can mess up gunshot residue testing.

Nope. Doesn't mess up the testing at all. The testing is not affected by whether the ammo shot is factory or reload. However, what reloads do is to provide GSR for which there is no commercial comparison. Commercial ammo generally has known components and known dispersal because it has known loads. The loads for reloads and subsequent data are not known and hence no comparative data available for making appopriate determinations.
 
When I teach CCW classes, the ammunition lecture is fairly brief, but I say to use a high-quality hollowpoint ammunition and provide a list of reputable brands, i.e. Speer Gold Dot, Federal HST and Hydra-Shok, Winchester Ranger, Remington Golden Saber, Cor-Bon DPX, etc.

We teach to leave FMJ ammo at the range due to reduced effectiveness and increased likelihood of overpenetration [Because one of the main points we teach is that if you pull the trigger, your responsibility ends when the bullet does, no matter where that may be].

We also say it's best to leave handloads for hunting and the range, as it makes ballistic testing by law enforcement difficult and can mess up gunshot residue testing. Needing to use a gun is unlikely and gunshot residue or ballistic testing being the deciding factor between a justified or unjustified shoot is less likely, but why risk it?
What about Hornady Critical Defense vs. Corbon Powerball? Which one is better?
 
What about Hornady Critical Defense vs. Corbon Powerball? Which one is better?

Which is better for what? What are your circumstances? Walls? Heavy clothing? Penetration? Lack of overpenetration? Muzzle flash?

There are a plethora of concerns to be addressed. Asking which is better without any other requirements is a bit tough.
 
Which is better for what? What are your circumstances? Walls? Heavy clothing? Penetration? Lack of overpenetration? Muzzle flash?

There are a plethora of concerns to be addressed. Asking which is better without any other requirements is a bit tough.
2 things: Conceal carry on person when out and about.
In house at home.
 
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