threatened while open carrying at work

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This might be rather long and detailed, but it is an interesting read.

I work primarily as a commercial truck technician and safey inspector at my family's small trucking company. At 24, I am the youngest employee here. With my position comes a certain amount of responsibility and authority over the rest of my coworkers. Not all of said coworkers like this.

Having pursued a degree in applied sociology for the past 5 years, I have become a rather tolerant and accepting person, also learning a lot about social class and stratification. I have concluded that there are two classes of people who work here, civilized and uncivilized. Level of civilization might correlate with socioeconomic class, but I do not judge you by how much money you make, I judge you by how you act, and how you treat my family's property.

This in not to reflect badly on commercial truck technicians in general, I admit we do not pay the best wages and in turn we do not have the best technicians. Most of the technicians I have dealt with at other companies are not like this. Meet Zeke: not exactly someone you'd want to have lunch with. He makes his own rules and does not follow any of ours. He is also untrained in the skills of flushing a toilet and using a trash can. Thus, I would classify him as uncivilized.

I was given the responsibility of cleaning up our shop. Over the course of a year I cleaned it 3 or 4 times, disposing of a total of over 10 cubic yards of garbage accumulated mostly by Zeke. After the most recent cleaning, I asked him to please start using a trash can because I cannot keep cleaning up his messes. Angered by the fact that I had thrown away his week old half full BK cup full of soda, Zeke posted a sign on the wall reading:

CAUTION: DRINK CROSSING. BROKEN FINGERS AHEAD.

I turned the sign into management (my dad) who advised me to inform Zeke that we do not do this sort of thing here. I politely asked Zeke whose fingers he planned on breaking, he said "yours if you touch any more of my stuff." and advanced towards me. I backed off and advised Zeke that if he tried to break my fingers or so much as touched me he would get a free pass to jail and not have a job when he posted bail. I then left the room.

Now, the open carry part. I had, and still have, my P11 loaded with 11 rounds clipped inside my strong side pocket in plain view. I evaluated the threat as serious, his eyes looked pretty angry, but the distance between us was to my advantage. In hindsight it would have been a very poor decision on his part to follow through with the threat... aside from being armed, my dad was in the next office over and would have been there in seconds. This might sound childish, I am a big guy and can take care of myself, but parental protectiveness never really seems to go away. I don't think it's a good idea to assault anyone while their parents are around, regardless of their age. Goes both ways, if someone assaults my dad they are going to have to deal with me.

I have been thinking about it all afternoon and I don't think I would have shot him had he assaulted me. You might agree or disagree, but I do not think he would have intended to put me in fear for my life, and uncivilized scum like this is not even worth the cost of one 9MM hollow point.

Bottom line, everyone went home at the end of the day and I am in the process of recommending Zeke's termination. Sad that grown men have to act like this, there is sometimes a stark contrast between educated, civilized men and uneducated, uncivilized men in environments such as this. Perhaps you have experienced it yourself.
 
good call

Zeke may be uncivilized, but that means he's as "civilized" as a lawyer. Had you shot him he would have found a lawyer (or a mortician:evil: ). Now had he broken my finger, I'd fear for mylife since I couldn't shoot as well. Of course I have a back condition that makes me look at situations differently. Zeke, made a bad choice posting his sign. He'll be fired. You made a good choice enlightening him that his actions include consequences... He breaks your fingers, he goes to jail. He threatens you (too late:evil: ) he loses his job.

Had zeke attempted to harm you you'd need to defend yourself appropriatly. I wasn't there so I don't know if a firefight would have been necessary.

Feel good that you are probably one of the first people to teach Zeke that choices have outcomes.
 
Zeke already threatened you, twice. The sign was number one and then number two was to your face. And he did it in an aggressive manner. Make sure it's documented in his personel file. I see no other reasonable outcome than termination. Any less and in his mind he has won and he now knows how to get what he wants.

If/when he is terminated if he so much as says boo to you call the cops and get an RO. He knows where you are all day. If something happens and you are forced to defend yourself there will be a paper trail of his behavior.
 
I'd sure as hell try to see his butt fired but my gun would stay holstered.
I'd hate to stand in front of a jury and try to explain that I shot him because he threatened to break my fingers then took a couple of steps in my direction.

Manslughter at the very least.

Wherever ya go, there's always gonna be a Zeke.
A 15" crescent wrench is mighty strong anti-***** medicine though...;)

Biker
 
As we used to say when I was in law enforcement, there is always at least one gun at every call, the one we bring with us. Well you were clearly in a similiar situation. You handled it well, if he had attacked you you would have had the additional duty of protecting your firearm so that he could not have become an angry armed man.

Good job.
 
you're a truck mechanic? put the gun in a lock box in the office.

you have the right to open carry in a workplace with the owner's consent, but exercising your rights is not always a good idea. get your daddy to fire the big bad man who scares you so much, then find a real job on your own where people can't make negative comment about your relationship to the boss.
 
I've worked as a mechanic for years. I was lead in the last shop I worked at. I got to meet a lot of Zekes. There are always guys like Zeke. Zeke needs to be strongly taught that his toolbox is his. The rest of the shop is NOT HIS. Slovenly workplace habits will result in serious career limitation. I strongly advise that A: If you have a workplace policies/procedures manual, that you ensure Zeke has read a copy, and that he affirms this in writing (put in his file) B: This incident, and any further incidents, need to be documented in writing, and Zeke needs to receive a copy and sign that he has received it, and that he has been counseled that this behavior is not allowed. C: If there is a repeat of any sort of incident Zeke needs shown the door ASAP, tolerating a guy that acts like that is a long-term detriment to any shop and there's other Zekes out there you can hire to replace him.
I am assuming Zeke has been there a long time, right? So now he thinks he owns the place. Guys like that didn't last in my shop. People get too "complacent" and think they can do what they want, forget who runs the place, they tend to get tuned up in a hurry.
 
We just read one side of the story. But, forgeting the gun/threat/nepotism stuff, the Cliff Notes version is that a trashy work place is an unsafe work place. Safety is a requirement for continued employment. Have the guy clean up his mess, give him a written reprimand regarding safe work rules, and if it happens again, give him his termination notice.

salty.
 
Well, in that situation, I would not have shot him, or drawn my gun. I would’ve stood my ground and taken an ass whoopin. If this guy began whooping me too hard, I would’ve pulled my gun and told him “That’s enough! Just back off! You’ve proved your point, you beet my ass, you won the fight. Enough’s enough now.”

It’s really a tough call though. It is instinct to go for any weapon you have, or do what ever it takes to avoid the pain of a physical beat down.

I am a firm believer in the right to bear arms, but at the same time I don’t believe a gun should be pulled due to a difference in opinion. A gun should only be pulled when you feel your life is being threatened. If you are attacked by an unknown person, I think shooting them is justified. After all, you have no idea why this guy is attacking you, or how far he intends on taking the fight. But if words and disagreement is what lead to a fight, I doubt the other guy wants to “kill” you, unless he has a weapon when he does it.

Erebus, brings up a good point. After his termination, you might want to think about getting a restraining order on the grounds that he has previously threatened you, and his termination partially a result of threatening you, and thus there is good reason to believe this guy might hold you solely responsible for losing his job, and attempt to exact some kind of revenge. This way, if you do encounter this guy again, and he attempts to harm you, and you shoot him, you have the paperwork to show this man has been “out to get you” and that’ll really give your lawyer something to work with when you’re up on murder charges.
 
The written threat is plenty of evidence to fire him on the spot.

get your daddy to fire the big bad man who scares you so much, then find a real job on your own where people can't make negative comment about your relationship to the boss.


Zeke? Is that you? :rolleyes:
 
As I read this, you don't have the authority to reprimand, or terminate Zeke.

Your only recourse is the either terminate the job, or forward a pooper complaint to the Boss that does have Authority.

Zeke may be all you say he is. What you need to learn, is who does the Boss value more. Is it Zeke, or you?

Sit down and analyze the situation. You are young. I perceive Zeke is older. At 55 years of age I have had similar situations. Some of them where aggravated by my youth and ignorance, at the time. Be an adult and talk to Dad about it fairly. You may have some fault without knowing it. If not, then consider finding another workplace, if the sitaution is not remedied.

BTW, the gun is a handicap there and should not be an issue, or even around. OSHA could come down heavy on Dad over it. At least keep it out of sight.

Jerry
 
Carterbeauford, I'm not trying to start a fight here. I'm just pointing out something from Zeke's point of view.

Have you considered the distinct possibility that Zeke, being older, might be a tad resentful of Daddy's little college-educated boy applying his newly-learned sensitivity, and awareness of theories of social stratification all the while simultaneously wearing a gun on his side at a trucking company?

If I worked in Zeke's job, and I had to deal with the Bossman's son, who wore a gun, and who liked to show off his fancy sociology-learnin', I know I wouldn't like it one bit.

Just sayin'.............of course, seeing it from the other guy's point of view is part of being sensitive and aware, right?

hillbilly
 
Have you considered the distinct possibility that Zeke, being older, might be a tad resentful of Daddy's little college-educated boy applying his newly-learned sensitivity, and awareness of theories of social stratification all the while simultaneously wearing a gun on his side at a trucking company?

Of course he's resentful. Fact is he has no future doing what he does and they realize it. I have no time for uncivilized people. There will always be a divide between the uncivilized and the civilized, nothing I can do about it. No one else seems to have this problem. I realize this is a one-sided story, but fact is threatening people is not something most of us get paid to do, and that I work with some people who would simply not make it in the real world. Some might look down upon my position, but the fact is he works in our shop, we don't work in his shop. If someone had disrespected your family's property you might take similar action.

I don't think excercising my right to carry has much to do with it, and am surprised that members are recommending I not carry. Zeke is not the reason I carry. I usually carry concealed but sometimes it is easier just to drop the P11 in my pocket.

I've worked as a mechanic for years. I was lead in the last shop I worked at. I got to meet a lot of Zekes. There are always guys like Zeke. Zeke needs to be strongly taught that his toolbox is his. The rest of the shop is NOT HIS. Slovenly workplace habits will result in serious career limitation. I strongly advise that A: If you have a workplace policies/procedures manual, that you ensure Zeke has read a copy, and that he affirms this in writing (put in his file) B: This incident, and any further incidents, need to be documented in writing, and Zeke needs to receive a copy and sign that he has received it, and that he has been counseled that this behavior is not allowed. C: If there is a repeat of any sort of incident Zeke needs shown the door ASAP, tolerating a guy that acts like that is a long-term detriment to any shop and there's other Zekes out there you can hire to replace him.
I am assuming Zeke has been there a long time, right? So now he thinks he owns the place. Guys like that didn't last in my shop. People get too "complacent" and think they can do what they want, forget who runs the place, they tend to get tuned up in a hurry.

That is a pretty accurate evaluation.
 
Depending on the guy's attitude(maybe he is a nice guy and just a slob) I may have seen the sign as humor. But this doesn't sound like it. This guy probably isn't a threat and is just trying to establish dominance over the "Boss's Kid". A written reprimand may be all that's needed. If I were the boss I would take this guy aside and talk to him and if I got any impression that he was serious about hurting someone he would be gone. And if someone is being terminated for threats of physical violence at least a no tresspass order would be in place.
 
If it was my shop, it wouldn't matter a whit if the person he threatened was my son or the janitor. He'd be out on his ass & he'd be lucky not to have his toolbox dropped on his head.

Threats aside, sloppy folk can be dangerous.
 
I dunno who has 'trouble getting along in the real world', the sloppy mechanic or the Boss's Kid.

Forget about the gun/threat(real or imagined), and think of management. If the mechanic has sloppy work habits that create an unsafe work enviornment, its your duty as an employer to correct that situtation.

I respectfully suggest that a conflict of culture is the major issue here.

There has been more than one or two dispatchers who have seen the light of day by the use of a few well spoken words.

salty.
 
This issue has nothing to do with open carrying, or firearms in general, and has everything to do with proper employee management.

Let's see:

-We have repeated, sometimes dangerously poor personal cleaniness issues. Have these been documented and the employee counceled?
-We have ongoing incidents of blatent disrespect of company property, that could be creating dangerous working conditions. Have these been documented and the employee counceled?
-We now have two incidents of personal threatening behavior, with written proof. Have these been documented and the employee counceled?

You have several issues, and make no mistake, the problem originator here is the employee in question. But, the management of the company (you, your Dad, whomever) not doing it's job as appropriate employee supervision is a huge issue, and the lack thereof, in essense, is allowing this behavior to continue with some legitimacy by not managing this problem employee accordingly as it occurs.

Fairly document the incidents as they occur. Fairly councel/warm the employee verbally and in writing while listing the consequences, and have them sign (if they refuse, document that). Follow through beyond and problem employees eventually hang themselves, with management legimately and correctly being rid of them.

This guy should have been gone a long time ago, and it's the fault of the management of the business that he isn't. (I sincerely hope to not read about you guys shooting this employee after he attacks you or another employee-with all that can entail-considering he could have and indeed should have been gone a long time prior.)

Cruc, been there done that, Cruc
 
I run a small business and I just let someone go for threatening another employee. The guy sounds like a pain, and an idiot for threatening the owners son, WHO IS ALSO OPENLY CARRYING A FIREARM. :eek: I don't know how your state works, in PA we can fire "at will". Other state get more complicated. Fire the guy as soon as possible. Then watch your back for a couple of weeks.

I never understood why people are so dumb. I seen a guy get into a heated arguement with the manager of an indoor range I go to. Apparently another employee give him a free pass to use the range, every once in a while. The manager said pay like everyone else, and the guy went ballastic. the guy scream, yelled, and threaten the manager(who by the way had a sidearm) over a $15 range fee.:rolleyes:
 
some thoughts.....

Smart move not getting sucked into a physical altercation.

It doesn't sound even remotely close to being a "deadly force" situation, as Zeke was unarmed.

He may have been deliberately trying to bate you into drawing on him, so he could go after you for brandishing or threatening.

If you got into a scuffle with an unarmed opponent, your open carry P11 could become a real problem, as you now have to prevent it from escaping your control.

Your the supervisor.....Dad needs to give you the authority to discipline (up to and including termintate) the employees you supervise. Threatening a supervisor is certainly grounds for dismissal. Firing Zeke will send a message to the other employees. Not firing him will send an even louder message.

As far as the "uncivilized employees" go... maybe it's a case of "you get what you pay for". IMO, not paying a living wage for a days labor is an act of disrespect to the employee. If you don't respect them, you've got no reasonable expectation that they respect you.

I work at a privately owned company and am well aquainted with the need to keep labor cost low in order to "float the boat". And I know that easy answers just don't exist. It's a culture change thing and that's not easy. If you (or more likely, your dad) are content to have the work environment stay the same....keep doing things just the way you are now.

But I bet that the same "who gives a rip" attitude carries over into the quality of work, accident rate, and productivity, and it may well pay to do the hard work required to attract better workers and "change the hearts and minds" of those you already have.

Good luck
 
Here's some free advice from an employment lawyer: assuming you are in an employment at will state and Zeke has no employment contract, terminate his employment as quickly as possible. Have a policy that clearly states workplace violence or threats are not tolerated and that engaging in such can result in immediate termiantion. Apply this policy, and all other rules/policies, uniformly and consistently to all employees.

Once Zeke is gone, take appropriate measures to prevent/guard against workplace violence from former employee who is now very disgruntled employee. You may want to reexamine physical security protection measures not only at the office, but at home too. Disgruntled employees are not confimed to exacting revenge just at the workplace.

All the above is FWIW.

Good commentary on the sociology aspects of it all.
Good luck.
 
Make sure he is terminated. If your family won't fire him, find yourself another job- that is a hostile work environment in every sense of the idea. As he is fired (I'm guessing that he will be), a restraining order may be a good idea. While he likely isn't going to be intimidated by a piece of paper, that piece of paper sets a good legal trail for future use, if necessary.
 
Wow! If he treats you like this, how does he treat the other mechanics, or the customers? Kinda makes you wonder how he treats his wife?:scrutiny:
 
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