almost got in a fight today while carrying

[Kobun]

Seriously colubrid, move out of the area. The problems you've had, are having and will have is not worth it!

And what you did in the park. That was just plain stupid!
Seeing what you look like, and that 99% of those in the park had no idea that the bike was stolen, well you just made yourself a big punk stealing a bike from a kid in broad daylight!
I would have been right up there with the others in the park confronting you when you attacked a child!
The only way you could have gotten away with it was if you were dressed in a white dress shirt and dockers. No petty criminal will dress that way.

And get a SAFE, so your guns and other things won't get stolen again. We don't need more guns among criminals.

Oh, and MOVE OUT!

 

[Spreadfire Arms]

Shoulda smoked him.

Who are the cops gonna believe? An upstanding citizen with a permit to carry or a convicted felon and his homies?

the best advice i've seen in this thread so far.

just killing someone over a bicycle or a verbal disagreement, as we all know, is illegal. :banghead:

 

[LightningJoe]

Bakert:

I agree 100%, but my main interest in this thread was the issue of dealing with sub-lethal threats while armed. This is something that occasionally intrudes into a discussion and I've never heard a reasonable answer, although I've heard a new one on this thread. The answers I've heard can be summarized as:

1] If you're carrying a gun, every encounter is lethal, so draw your weapon and challenge the unarmed attacker; if he advances, shoot him.

2] Traditional blank look

3] Change of subject

4] (the new one) don't be a jerk and you won't get into sub-lethal encounters


I strongly suspect answer #1 is not workable. #2 and #3 I'll take as pleas for debative mercy. #4 sounds like #2 with an attitude.

My answer is carry a gun that doesn't automatically enter the fight when you come into physical contact with an attacker.

 

[Barbara]

It's possible it wasn't your kids bike, either. Someone swiped my kids bike, and then I heard that another neighborhood kid had one just like it suddenly, and putting two and two together, I went over there to investigate. Exact same style/color bike, but not my kids.

 

[colubrid]

It's possible it wasn't your kids bike, either. Someone swiped my kids bike, and then I heard that another neighborhood kid had one just like it suddenly, and putting two and two together, I went over there to investigate. Exact same style/color bike, but not my kids.

Barbara

It was my kids bike. He races BMX in and is NBL rated nationally in the expert class. His bike is built from different expensive parts. This was no Wally World bike. As an example a headset is $120. Wheels built around Crupi hubs and rims $220. each , Frame $550. Widow Cranks $100. ect ect.

BTW a couiple people mentioned the KelTec .380 . I have one and do occasionally carry it. Thing is you never know when to carry it and when not to. As a rule, when I am around the yard and house I carry a Glock.

 

[Jeff White]

Joe,
What part of de-escalate is so hard to understand? Along with all the tactical pistol, carbine and shotgun courses we take to deal with the extremes, I recommend that everyone who may face an encounter that could turn into a fight, to take a course in Verbal Judo. http://www.verbaljudo.org/

We spend most of of our limited training budget on learning how to win a deadly force encounter, but few people train to de-escalate a potential use of force incident.

Naturally, there are some subjects who won't respond to anything or may just wade in and attack. In this case you have to remember that you are armed, and take action to retain your firearm. Any attempt by your attacker to grab your firearm should be treated as the use of deadly force against you.

At that point, if you can, disengage and draw your weapon. If you can't, use whatever backup you carry, be it another firearm or an edged weapon.

I think that you're safer from a gun-grab with pocket carry then with belt carry. Whatever method of carry you choose, make sure you train for the situation where you may find yourself going hands on with an attacker. But just as importantly, train to avoid this if at all possible.

Jeff

 

[Wheeler]

Colubrid,

I am very familiar with the area you are refering to. For those of you not from the ATL area, his general area is usually in the news 5-6 times a week with a stabbing, shooting, or something of the like. I always carry a .380 on my person, unless I am in bed or in the shower, epecially down there. Last time I had a service call in the area, I was in a deadend alley trying to reset some parking lot lights that were going off too early, for obvious reasons, this was a problem. It was tough trying to work, keep a Sig 239 from being seen, swap tools around, and watch my back. I told my boss the only way I was going back down there if I had to make a return trip at night was if someone came with me to watch my back.

Yeah, it's a bad area, and I understand your concern about getting into a physical altercation while packing. Could you have handled the situation a little better? Certainly! Then again, you probably weren't looking for the reaction you got either, most of us never are.

Georgia does not take kindly to brandishment of a firearm. You had better have a good reason to point the business end of your blaster at someone. I had a problems with a group of individuals in a home improvement store in Gainesville, Ga. I noticed one of them trying to read the pin number of my debit card as I made a purchase. When I questioned him on his actions, the entire group became very verbose and somewhat agitated. I had the advantage of a few seconds to think, I had my wife with me, I had cart full of stuff, I had a Sig 239 (at the time) on my left hip, (yup, southpaw), and all six of them were behind me and to my right. Usually I return my wallet to my right hip pocket by lifting the hem of my cover garmet. This time, I turned, looked all of them in the eye, and swept my garmet back, exposing my magazine and carrier. The message was clear, they took the hint, and I pushed that cart full of goodies VERY rapidly through the parking lot, sending my wife ahead. A bit of background, at the time, I had a recurring, somewhat debilitating ankle injury, I couldn't run, could barely walk at a rapid pace. Was there some machismo involved? Certainly. Then again, sometimes when you encounter a pack of dgs you have to show you have bigger teeth. My choice may not have ben the best, and I can look back and rethink how I might have done things but, if it hadn't been for that gun and magazine, I most likely would have been looking at some serious ouch time, at the very best.

Wheeler

 

[Cosmoline]

It's hard to tell exactly where you were and where he was. That said I'd offer these pointers:

NEVER GO NOSE-TO-NOSE. If he comes up at you, BACK UP TOWARDS CONCEALMENT AND COVER. Always always always. Make him come to you, and make sure you're behind as much concealment and cover as possible. Never muscle up to anyone, under any circumstances, EVER. Never challenge anyone. Never argue with anyone who might attack you. It's about the worst thing you can do tactically, but it's the typical action of the kind of criminal you were dealing with. Let HIM do the puffing of his chest and let HIM come onto your property while YOU back up onto your porch or into your house. It's not about a duty to retreat, it's all about getting yourself in a position where if he goes for a piece you will present a 12" target for him while he's a six foot target for you. That's a fight you'll likely win.

In your situation, it also would behoove you to get away from "the pack" of his buddies. Don't play their game of puffing yourself up and tossing insults back. Get out of there and ignore their insults while watching closely for them to pull a weapon. Be a sneaky coward, not a brave macho man.

If possible, get to a long gun so that if he presses the attack into your stronghold, you can blow him in half not just put a hole in him. Some of these guys are huge and can take a lot of lead as I'm sure you know.

 

[Cosmoline]

Secondly, when you carry a firearm you give up the right to engage in fisticuffs or start confrontations.

Golden advice.

 

[colubrid]

fisticuffs.....?

Okay I have to ask this. I know what handcuffs are and i have even heard of thumbcuffs are but what are fisticuffs? I cam assume what it means from the sentence structure but I don't want to assume.

here is my KellTec P-3AT. Had the full fluff & buff and the hood modification. Shoots 100% all the time. I frontpocket carry in a BL Graham holster.

 

[colubrid]

thanks to all!

I just want everyone to know I appreciate your posts. I have taken to heart eveything said and will put these things into practice. There is a lot of info here and I think this was a very cool thread. I will continue to re-read this often. Thanks to eveyone and please keep the advice coming!!

 

[LightningJoe]

Joe,
Any attempt by your attacker to grab your firearm should be treated as the use of deadly force against you.

I think you found my problem. That's it right there. I don't want to bring the gun to the fist fight. Maybe that means I shouldn't carry. But carry I do. Well, maybe I should go back to my Kel-Tec P32. Or maybe I should save up for a Rohrbaugh. The Millennium Pro I carry right now is either on my belt or in a Thunderwear type holster. I don't use the Thunderwear much. Maybe I should change to using that all the time. Won't work for blue jeans, though.


There are many, many considerations. It's a conundrum that may have no perfect solution.


As for de-escalating the face-off, I've walked that tightrope many times with many different kinds of people. But the sort of people who keep fighting with lots of bullet holes in them can come at you armed or unarmed. I rate them difficult.

 

[Jeff White]

colubrid,
Fisticuffs is just a fancy word for fist fight.

LightningJoe said;

I think you found my problem. That's it right there. I don't want to bring the gun to the fist fight.

Unless your fist fights are done in a ring with a referee and fought under Marquis de Queensbury rules, you may have need of your gun in a fist fight. If your opponent takes you to the ground and starts putting the boot to your head, you can be just as dead as if he had shot or stabbed you. You shouldn't be putting yourself in the situation where you want to get in a fist fight, with your gun or without it. While there may be many people out there who are just begging for a punch in the nose, you can't go around giving them one. There are laws against battery in every state. If you are attacked and forced to fight, you use only the force necessary to stop the attack and disengage.

Maybe that means I shouldn't carry. But carry I do. Well, maybe I should go back to my Kel-Tec P32. Or maybe I should save up for a Rohrbaugh. The Millennium Pro I carry right now is either on my belt or in a Thunderwear type holster. I don't use the Thunderwear much. Maybe I should change to using that all the time. Won't work for blue jeans, though.

I think it means that you should seek out some training in weapons retention. Find the mode of carry that works best for you with the weapon that you feel is adequate for the job and then find someone to teach you weapons retention.

There are many, many considerations. It's a conundrum that may have no perfect solution.

There are no perfect solutions to any self defense problem. Everything is a trade off. There are no magic bullets or calibers, OC, Mace, Tasers and stun guns don't work on everyone, some people can even take quite a beating from a steel collapsible baton and still function.

As for de-escalating the face-off, I've walked that tightrope many times with many different kinds of people.

What do you do or what kind of lifestyle do you lead that you have so many confrontations? I work alone and would say that about 80% or more of the arrests I make are single handed because backup can be 20 minutes away. I don't have all that many confrontations.

But the sort of people who keep fighting with lots of bullet holes in them can come at you armed or unarmed. I rate them difficult.

Difficult? They can be impossible. Then there is the dumb luck factor. You can spend 10 hours a week in the dojo practicing HTH, another 10 hours on the pistol range with the most effective handgun/ammunition combo you can buy. You can keep a long gun in your vehicle. You can wear level IIIA body armor everywhere, you can do everything right, and still lose.

Jeff

 

[Gordy Wesen]

!

 

[Jeff White]

Gordy,
Like it or not, we live in a PC world. We have to delete threads started by people who post on places like Stormfront. The use of the words, ghetto, gangster, rap culture etc, would all have described where colubrid lives without giving one of the aryan nations members who lurk here and occassionally post a chance to start spewing their unique brand of hatred and get a productive thread closed or deleted.

If you described my dog as a swarthy black bitch to avoid saying she is a Rottweiler you do the story a disservice.

Not all black neighborhoods are ghettos just like all swarthy black dogs aren't Rottweilers. I think the adjectives I suggested actually did a better job of describing his situation.

Jeff

 

[PCGS65]

If your right about him being in prison imagine this.
BG attacks you on your property you draw and open fire.
In the paper the next day it says convicted felon shot to death attacking neighbor. Man safe thanks to CCW. This would be a nice story.
But this one could go a million different ways. Most of them bad for you!

 

[psyopspec]

BG attacks you on your property you draw and open fire.
In the paper the next day it says convicted felon shot to death attacking neighbor. Man safe thanks to CCW. This would be a nice story.

In the dysfunctional wasteland of the American press, it could just as easily be spun as a racially motivated slaying.

 

[PCGS65]

In the dysfunctional wasteland of the American press, it could just as easily be spun as a racially motivated slaying.

That's exactly how it would go!

But this one could go a million different ways. Most of them bad for you!

 

[LightningJoe]

What do you do or what kind of lifestyle do you lead that you have so many confrontations?

Actually, I don't run into difficult people much anymore, although I still see them in public places like the mall and I feel like I can rate them pretty accurately. How does one arrange to have confrontations? Well, live a little while. Be a member of a resented race that is locally in the minority. Be poor. Walk to or from work for several miles every night between 10:00 pm and 1:00 am through certain kinds of neighborhoods. Try riding a bike as your principal means of transportation; a bicyclist is a very effective a**hole detector--I'm not sure why. I suppose it's the class distinction between very low class people in motor vehicles and people who are clearly on the margins. The actual class difference is small and therefore affords the rare opportunity to get aggressive/dominant because the power difference is large. (Chasing after these people on your bike until they finally park probably doesn't help, I'll admit). Also, working as an unarmed security person at a hospital in the absolute worst part of a rather backward city is a good way to meet difficult people. Wearing a metal badge and a gun can be difficult; wearing a plastic badge and no gun, well, it's a different world. Stand around at bus stops a lot in certain kinds of neighborhoods. Hoo-wee! The people you'll meet and the things you'll see. Or just work the midnight shift in the only convenience store in downtown San Antonio. Or wear the only blue shirt in a room full of guys who wear baggy orange outfits and little plastic flip-flops.


Poverty, visibility, racial unpopularity combined with solitude, obliviousness to physical danger, primitive transportation, jobs which involve interacting with difficult people. These constitute a recipe for confrontations. Having a car, a house among the crepe myrtles, and a college degree will do a lot more than a gun. They're also a lot harder to get, of course.

 

[colubrid]

Originally Posted by Jeff White
What do you do or what kind of lifestyle do you lead that you have so many confrontations?



Actually, I don't run into difficult people much anymore, although I still see them in public places like the mall and I feel like I can rate them pretty accurately. How does one arrange to have confrontations? Well, live a little while. Be a member of a resented race that is locally in the minority. Be poor. Walk to or from work for several miles every night between 10:00 pm and 1:00 am through certain kinds of neighborhoods. Try riding a bike as your principal means of transportation; a bicyclist is a very effective a**hole detector--I'm not sure why. I suppose it's the class distinction between very low class people in motor vehicles and people who are clearly on the margins. The actual class difference is small and therefore affords the rare opportunity to get aggressive/dominant because the power difference is large. (Chasing after these people on your bike until they finally park probably doesn't help, I'll admit). Also, working as an unarmed security person at a hospital in the absolute worst part of a rather backward city is a good way to meet difficult people. Wearing a metal badge and a gun can be difficult; wearing a plastic badge and no gun, well, it's a different world. Stand around at bus stops a lot in certain kinds of neighborhoods. Hoo-wee! The people you'll meet and the things you'll see. Or just work the midnight shift in the only convenience store in downtown San Antonio. Or wear the only blue shirt in a room full of guys who wear baggy orange outfits and little plastic flip-flops.

LOL!

Poverty, visibility, racial unpopularity combined with solitude, obliviousness to physical danger, primitive transportation, jobs which involve interacting with difficult people. These constitute a recipe for confrontations. Having a car, a house among the crepe myrtles, and a college degree will do a lot more than a gun. They're also a lot harder to get, of course

Or you can still do all the above and have section 8 housing move in next door. Courtesy of the US gov't.

Since I bought my new house dec, 31, 1999 property values only went up $10,000.... YES YOU READ THAT CORRECT. After nearly 6 years, the same houses on my block only sold for 10 grand more than when they were first new. Why is this ? Because blacks in the area buy houses and then can't afford to pay for them until the banks foreclose on them. Or they get arressted for trafficking drugs and are immediatly thrown in prison. Then you see the all their belongings laying on the front lawn. Soon the windows are broken and people are staying in unoccupied houses.

Getting a degree and having a great job is not always the answer. I lost my job because the largest corporation in the world (waste management) came along and bought the 80 million dollar company I was working for (and which I helped built) off. Then of course they had their own officers, and I was immediatly phased out with two weeks compensation.

I can't move right now because no body will sell me a house without a job. And until my wife graduates I am staying home to take care of our 2 year old daughter.

 

[lawboy]

colubrid, I don't believe your story. Further, your stereotypging and the high value you place on racial identification in your account are unfortunate. Be well.

 

[spacemanspiff]

i think we can coin a new phrase based on this thread:

Ghetto Ninja!

 

[brufener]

Bakert:

I agree 100%, but my main interest in this thread was the issue of dealing with sub-lethal threats while armed. This is something that occasionally intrudes into a discussion and I've never heard a reasonable answer, although I've heard a new one on this thread. The answers I've heard can be summarized as:

1] If you're carrying a gun, every encounter is lethal, so draw your weapon and challenge the unarmed attacker; if he advances, shoot him.

2] Traditional blank look

3] Change of subject

4] (the new one) don't be a jerk and you won't get into sub-lethal encounters


I strongly suspect answer #1 is not workable. #2 and #3 I'll take as pleas for debative mercy. #4 sounds like #2 with an attitude.

My answer is carry a gun that doesn't automatically enter the fight when you come into physical contact with an attacker.

I disagree with your categories. I believe #1 should be divided into two categories:

1a] physical encounter with a person whom you know you have physical superiorty over. The obvious answer here is to wait until they hit you, and then hit them back harder.

1b] physical encounter with a person whom you know has physical superiority over you. The answer here is that it is a potentially deadly encounter. If they can beat you in a fist-fight, then they can keep pounding until you black out and/or are dead. Most (if not all) adults who are willing to start a fist-fight do not abide by gentlemen's rules. Thus you have to assume the worst - that they will beat you until you black out and/or are dead. In this case, it is a lethal encounter and you should employ your weapon accordingly.

As others have mentioned, the key here is not to be the agressor. If you are the agressor, then you will be in trouble legally (in either category).

For me (5'8" and 160 lbs) most men will have physical superiority over me. Thus I choose to have a weapon to make the situation equitable.

Caveat: I have not been in a physical confrontation since junior high, and haven't had anything close to it for a long while.

 

[Patera]

Good lord, people. Does the mention of the word "black" automatically mean racist? It seems so in today's day and age.

Jeff White had the best advice: de-escalation. Avoid such encounters at all costs. Act meek, pathetic and pitiful. Apologize profusely and kow-tow your way out of these situations, if you're in one. Most people won't waste their time on such a pathetic individual (I know, I've done this back in my earlier teens. The aggressors would usually turn away in disgust). Do everything you can to de-escalate.

If this fails, then act however you must to survive, just make sure you are justified to yourself. YOU, your conscience, and family comes first, then the law, then society, then internet posters. You will always be judged, but only one judge really matters.

...is there a more PC term for "black"? The only African-American I can think of is Charlize Theron.

 

[LightningJoe]

The only African-American I can think of is Charlize Theron.

And Theresa Heinz.