Three Reasons to Carry a Backup

No one has. Perhaps we could wait for those complaints until it happens.
Sure
The implication of your post was that if any member of the potential audience doesn't find the discussion enlightening or valuable then it shouldn't take place. Your repeated attempts to couch this discussion/exchange as an attempt to take away the ability of people to make their own choices, or an attempt to "push" an opinion seem to align with that general idea.
I was speaking in the overall context of discussions. Didn't say it was happening in this thread topic. Obviously, I could've made the effort to be more clear. Mea culpa. I've repeatedly been up and away from the computer while handling other things. ;)
So, if I read you wrong, then I apologize. But it would be more appropriate to address the issues where you disagree rather than complain about people trying to restrict your choices or implying that everyone in the potential audience needs to feel a topic is enlightening or valuable before it should take place.
Nothing for which to apologize. Context and communication can be awkward or difficult when only text narrative is involved and body language, demeanor and tonal expression aren't available to be experienced (and proof-reading isn't done to review and catch things that might be clarified ;) ).

I also might've backed off on the "ability of people to make their own choices", but I was trying to make an effort to avoid stepping on the toes of anyone who didn't like to hear what a former LE instructor might opine, because they reserved the right to be responsible for their own decisions.:rofl: That apparently backfired. :neener:
 
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I was probably predisposed to see it the other way, I guess. I've run into more than a few people who literally get angry if you present options different from theirs.

I was once upbraided for suggesting to a person that it would be a good idea to close their garage door at night rather than leaving it open all the time. As if my just mentioning the subject was an insult. That was an extreme example, but it's not that uncommon for what I call the "Preparation Equivalence Syndrome" to strike.

That is, people with PES tend to have the following point of view:

1. People who prepare less than I do are clueless sheeple.
2. People who prepare to exactly the same level I do are ok.
3. People who prepare more than I do, are paranoid--and their mere existence and opinions are an affront to me because they are implying that I am a clueless sheeple*. (* See #1)
 
I was probably predisposed to see it the other way, I guess. I've run into more than a few people who literally get angry if you present options different from theirs.

I was once upbraided for suggesting to a person that it would be a good idea to close their garage door at night rather than leaving it open all the time. As if my just mentioning the subject was an insult. That was an extreme example, but it's not that uncommon for what I call the "Preparation Equivalence Syndrome" to strike.

That is, people with PES tend to have the following point of view:

1. People who prepare less than I do are clueless sheeple.
2. People who prepare to exactly the same level I do are ok.
3. People who prepare more than I do, are paranoid--and their mere existence and opinions are an affront to me because they are implying that I am a clueless sheeple*. (* See #1)
Easy to have happen.

The description you offer of folks with PES?

Abso-freaking-lutely. :cool:
 
I'd still rather be face-to-face with people in a classroom, than just rely upon exchanging text narratives. Too much opportunity for misunderstanding. That's one of the reasons why when Mas was pushing me to start publishing articles under my actual name, I told him I wasn't really interested in doing so. I'm a face-the-student kind guy. I may have provided handouts and used PowerPoint for some various classroom training, but I liked the live exchange where I could see the body language of the guys and gals, and they could see mine. Didn't eliminate the potential for "that guy" to be in one of the seats, but seeing each other's body language and reading vocal expression/tone even made easier to communicate in those instances.

Also, you have a thankless task in being a moderator/playground monitor. One of the reasons I've turned down requests to serve as such on a couple of other forums. :uhoh::rofl:
 
Interesting article by Mas Ayoob on Wes Hardin and three reasons for carrying a back up.

Anything by that particular "author" can usually be classified as "interesting" reading. Whether it is factual or not, is usually questionable. 😒

Regardless, unless you "live by the gun", I see no reason to burden your life with concealed carrying multiple firearms. During my LE career, every day. Retired, I can count the number of times on one hand. But whatever makes you warm and fuzzy. Great country this American Freedom. 🇺🇸
 
Regardless, unless you "live by the gun", I see no reason to burden your life with concealed carrying multiple firearms.
Opinions vary.

After retiring, Jim Cirillo carried two Glocks. I thought that excessive.

I now carry two pistols, concealed., along with OC spray. It should be obvious that I see a reason for doing so.

I do not "live by the gun".
 
Meh.

I file this under "options".

See, the logical extension of this leads to me carrying far more than I want, or can practically, carry.

Everybody has an opinion these matters, and my own is "if it floats your boat, have at it".

Five reasons to carry a "high capacity" firearm.

3 reasons to carry X number of reloads.

The positives of body armor.

EDC tool list.

Why it's important to carry basic first aid supplies.

The need for a bugout bag.



While I respect Massad for his wisdom and advice, I would have to say that there's a very important aspect of his chosen example for his "three reasons" that is glossed over. Namely that, good guy or bad guy, John Wesley Hardin was a "gunfighter", a person who quite literally lived and died by the gun. He killed his first man at 15, was sentenced to prison at 23 for murder, and was literally pursued by lawmen for most of his life.

Given that he was 42 when he died, that kind of implies that those nearly 50 people he killed averaged out to almost 2 people a year from the age of 15.

Maybe he really didn't kill anybody who didn't "need" killing...but he still lead a deliberately violent life, intentionally placing himself in circumstances in which killing someone else was the end result.

I would argue that ANYBODY who would lead a life like that ought to carry multiple weapons, plenty of ammunition, body armor, lots of backup support, and a ready means of fast escape. And an attorney on retainer.
Valid points. So many gun owners live like the cartel put out a hit on them.

One reliable gun should be plenty adequate unless ones profession takes them into harms way.
 
Opinions vary.

After retiring, Jim Cirillo carried two Glocks. I thought that excessive.

I now carry two pistols, concealed., along with OC spray. It should be obvious that I see a reason for doing so.

I do not "live by the gun".
Jim Cirillo had good reason to be ready well after retirement. A career like that leads to alot of enemies that a typical cop won't ever make.
 
Mas' points are at least worth considering. As a civilian carrier, here are my thoughts on each:

1) Gun failure. I've chosen to carry a modern autoloader that is extremely reliable. To control common failure modes, I carry proven, new factory ammo in a factory mag and a spare, loaded factory magazine in quality holsters. And I keep my EDC clean and lubed. Nothing's perfect, but this approach keeps reliability really close to perfect. I see very little here to drive me to carry a BUG.

2) Arm a buddy. In non-LEO, non-military encounters, distances seem to be short and durations brief. I just can't imagine a realistic self-defense scenario, short of a mass shooting, in which arming a friend would be possible. These events seem to generally follow a "use what you brung" kind of pattern. In the case of a mass shooting, even if an unarmed but trained ally does happen to be available, I just can't see that sharing a j-frame or other small BUG would turn the tide.

3) Draw with each hand. This is one that DOES make sense for me. Having two guns carried in different locations with different drawstrokes adds alternatives in a fight. When I first occassionally carried a BUG (back then in an off-side pocket) my thinking was that it was for a "get-off-me" role. I think that it also works in the case of an injured or immobilized dominant-side hand or arm. Or when potentially firing from inside a jacket pocket.

But at this point, the only time that I carry a BUG is when I'm going to be spending a lot of time driving. It is tough to clear a seat belt and cover garment when drawing my IWB EDC from the driver's seat. My drawstroke when carrying a BUG on the inside of my non-dominant-side ankle is faster and more reliable. The use case is generally against a carjacking, and then only when my vehicle cannot move for some reason.

My thinking here is still evolving.

4) When the primary is empty. This matters to those who carry revolvers, I suppose. I used to carry a 10+1 autoloader. Now, I carry a 16+1 autoloader with a spare magazine. I see virtually nothing here to drive me to carry a BUG.
 
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Opinions vary.

After retiring, Jim Cirillo carried two Glocks. I thought that excessive.

I now carry two pistols, concealed., along with OC spray. It should be obvious that I see a reason for doing so.

I do not "live by the gun".
Jim Cirillo had good reason to be ready well after retirement. A career like that leads to alot of enemies that a typical cop won't ever make.
 
Valid points. So many gun owners live like the cartel put out a hit on them.
I've often wondered if those people really live like that or if they pretend to in the internet. Some of the posts I've seen here over the years make me think of Evil Roy Slade:


I'm posting this clip to inject a little levity into the conversation..........................
 
Could the carrying of multiple weapons and pepper sprays be used to influence the jury in a negative way against the defendant in a self defense trial?
I realize in most states it is legal to carry a backup but could the practice be presented in a negative light to a court?

"He was looking for a fight, he had two guns and a knife on him",

Just a curious thought.
.
 
Good point - some states' laws specifically prohibit carrying more than 1 firearm at a time as a CCW.


They also may have other quirky laws you need to be aware of. For example in North Carolina it is illegal to carry a fixed blade knife concealed, CCW carrier or not.
 
Could the carrying of multiple weapons and pepper sprays be used to influence the jury in a negative way against the defendant in a self defense trial?
I realize in most states it is legal to carry a backup but could the practice be presented in a negative light to a court?

"He was looking for a fight, he had two guns and a knife on him",

Just a curious thought.
.
Yes.

Anything can.
 
Mas' points are at least worth considering. As a civilian carrier, here are my thoughts on each:

1) Gun failure. I've chosen to carry a modern autoloader that is extremely reliable. To control common failure modes, I carry proven, new factory ammo in a factory mag and a spare, loaded factory magazine in quality holsters. And I keep my EDC clean and lubed. Nothing's perfect, but this approach keeps reliability really close to perfect. I see very little here to drive me to carry a BUG.

2) Arm a buddy. In non-LEO, non-military encounters, distances seem to be short and durations brief. I just can't imagine a realistic self-defense scenario, short of a mass shooting, in which arming a friend would be possible. These events seem to generally follow a "use what you brung" kind of pattern. In the case of a mass shooting, even if an unarmed but trained ally does happen to be available, I just can't see that sharing a j-frame or other small BUG would turn the tide.

3) Draw with each hand. This is one that DOES make sense for me. Having two guns carried in different locations with different drawstrokes adds alternatives in a fight. When I first occassionally carried a BUG (back then in an off-side pocket) my thinking was that it was for a "get-off-me" role. I think that it also works in the case of an injured or immobilized dominant-side hand or arm. Or when potentially firing from inside a jacket pocket.

But at this point, the only time that I carry a BUG is when I'm going to be spending a lot of time driving. It is tough to clear a seat belt and cover garment when drawing my IWB EDC from the driver's seat. My drawstroke when carrying a BUG on the inside of my non-dominant-side ankle is faster and more reliable. The use case is generally against a carjacking, and then only when my vehicle cannot move for some reason.

My thinking here is still evolving.

4) When the primary is empty. This matters to those who carry revolvers, I suppose. I used to carry a 10+1 autoloader. Now, I carry a 16+1 autoloader with a spare magazine. I see virtually nothing here to drive me to carry a BUG.

In regards to the Arm a buddy point. I have 3 good friends here in Missouri, we all have our CCW licenses.

Friend # 1 is a Reserve County Deputy.
Friend # 2 is the Chief of the local fire department, county coroner, and paramedic.
Friend # 3 is contract travel nurse.

While all my friends have a gun in their vehicles, I frequently find that I'm the only one carrying. How do I find that out? I ask my friends - "are you packing?"
I have started to keep a 2nd loaded handgun (Holstered Glock 26 with spare mags) locked up in my vehicles, to arm a friend. I frequently have a long gun in my pickup.

Where can I see that being a benefit? Mass shooting, gas station robbery, road rage incident, backing up local police officer, wilderness defensive situation, etc.

For example, if my friends and I come up on a situation like this that happened in Arkansas, we're going to aid that police officer:
 
I needed one reason,

In the very remote chance that I needed one in an emergency, the consequences of not having it could be extremely severe.
 
There's no way I'm arming a friend unless its a fellow officer who I've already seen in a gun call. People who seem rock solid may still perform poorly under pressure and do the wrong thing. I'd hate for my buddy to pull the trigger at the wrong time with a gun I just handed to him. I'm not giving someone the opportunity to ruin my life.
 
There's no way I'm arming a friend unless its a fellow officer who I've already seen in a gun call. People who seem rock solid may still perform poorly under pressure and do the wrong thing. I'd hate for my buddy to pull the trigger at the wrong time with a gun I just handed to him. I'm not giving someone the opportunity to ruin my life.
Can’t argue with that
 
Could the carrying of multiple weapons and pepper sprays be used to influence the jury in a negative way against the defendant in a self defense trial?
I realize in most states it is legal to carry a backup but could the practice be presented in a negative light to a court?

"He was looking for a fight, he had two guns and a knife on him",

Just a curious thought.
.

"Could the (insert scenario) be used to influence the jury..."

Yes. Because it's the job of the prosecution (and defense) to do exactly that.

The simple fact of using deadly force itself can be used to influence a jury against you, even in the best of circumstances.

While this MAY be a consideration with respect to the various factors revolving around the entire subject of deadly force and self defense, I generally caution against making this a primary consideration.

One's efforts are far more productively employed in understanding the laws and training/working to act within them than worrying about how this or that can be made to look bad for you in court. A "good shoot" that can be clearly shown to have been within the bounds of the law with respect to self-defense is going to be your best legal defense.
 
There's no way I'm arming a friend unless its a fellow officer who I've already seen in a gun call. People who seem rock solid may still perform poorly under pressure and do the wrong thing. I'd hate for my buddy to pull the trigger at the wrong time with a gun I just handed to him. I'm not giving someone the opportunity to ruin my life.

I'd argue you need better friends.

But agree, I would only arm the 3 mentioned in my post plus maybe 2 more not mentioned.
 
One of my reasons for carrying the second weapon is religious fanaticism. ;) My “conversion” happened one morning, in 1988 or 1989, when I arrived at home, after working a duty shift of police patrol, and discovered that there was a rattling/tinkling sound, within my S&W Model 58. I removed the grip panels, and two parts of the main spring fell onto the table. (S&W K/L/N-Frame revolvers use a leaf-type main spring.) Well, OK, this is more like Obsessive-Compulsive, rather than religious, and not so Obsessive-Compulsive that I always carry two firearms, but, yes, I am all too aware that a firearm can fail, due to parts breakage.

Notably, I not not find any evidence that this main spring had been “shaved,” to reduce trigger pull weight. Manufacture of the individual revolver had been about 1974 or 1975, when S&W made a run of these for San Antonio PD. I had bought this Model 58 in 1985.

Another reason that I have carried more than one firearm, when not in the line of duty, is because of I have much affection for the Ruger SP101, which is a five-shot weapon, and, like its J-Frame cousins, does not have much “work space,” for a speed loaders, when the cylinder is swung to its loading position. Unlike the J-Frame, the factory grip of an SP101 fills my hand nicely, I can get all of my skinny fingers onto the grip, and the “heel” of the grip reaches all the way to make firm contact with the “heel bone” of my hand, an added point of contact. This additional point of contact, and the resulting stability, has always meant better accuracy potential and shot-to-shot recovery. Then, when arthritis caught up with me, many compact handguns became intolerable to fire enough, with my less-healthy right hand, to get a good training effect. So, the SP101 is my default “compact” handgun, with a grip that enables it to handle more like a duty weapon, at least in my hands.

Why bother with low-capacity revolvers? Well, for one thing, my right hand is getting gimpy. There is more going on, than just arthritis. I only trust my right hand to provide a stable platform, for reliable cycling, with a very few select duty-sized auto-pistols. Some amount of effort is required to dress around these pistols. A revolving pistol does not mind if my Ulnar Nerve is having a bad day, and concealing a spur-less hammer revolving pistol is a comparatively simpler task.

Notably, it is NOT unusual for me to dress-around a Glock G17. 1911 pistols, too, occasionally. I have been dressing around full-sized duty handguns since ~1985.

My back has not normally bothered me, but, twice, in my life, I tweaked my lower back in such a way that the muscles would fire-off most painfully, if I carried the weight of a firearm, unless I carried a balanced load of two firearms, one in each front pocket. Each time, having 2+ compact revolving pistols, and 2+ pocket holsters, enabled me to be armed well enough for most foreseeable problems.

A related personal factor in carrying two weapons is to maximize the benefit of being relatively ambidextrous. I am not fully ambidextrous, with all tools and tasks, but I am, with most revolvers, and some number of autos. Notably, I write lefty, and throw right-handed. Long ago, I chose to carry on my right side, because the draw felt more natural when done right-handed, especially when using then-mandated L-Frame revolvers, from the then-mandated low-slung duty holsters, with the way that the draw was taught, in those days. (Texas did not have generally-legal handgun carry, at the time, so, I could not carry a handgun until 1984, when sworn-in as an LEO.) I may well carry lefty, either a large or compact weapon, but, with so many draws, over the decades, from my right hip area, I still feel most comfortable, and most comforted, if there is at least an SP101 at ~0300. Sometimes, while LEO-ing, I would draw, more than once during a shift of duty. Though now retired for 6+ years, old habits, hard-wired into the brain, die hard.

This is my way, not THE way. :)
 
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Sometimes my "back up gun" is my primary gun when I'm walking or standing with a hand in my pocket because of a perceived potential threat.

When I'm off duty my BUG is usually a smaller caliber less capacity type gun because of the space it will reside.

I don't feel under-gunned with a G26 against other conventional handguns, but I still carry an onion field piece.

While neither of these two are powerhouses, they offer very lightweight, one handed, rapid fire capability to create distance to either disengage or access a more potent gun carried elsewhere.
 

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I have gotten into the habit of carrying an "administrative" BUG, but it probably wouldn't pass muster by many of you- an NAA Mini in .22 LR contained in a knife pouch in my weakside front pocket.
You are right about passing muster with that little NAA.

You'd be better off with the actual knife that goes in that knife pouch.

I WOULD RATHER HAVE A SHARP STICK, ROCK OR ALMOST ANYTHING ELSE. 😁

Just joking. Sort of. You do you. You got my vote. 👋
 
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