Thunder Ranch NIB Problem

[jrhines]

I have a client that bought a LB Thunder Ranch 1911 from a dealer in VA, and I'll do the transfer into MD. The gun is a beaut! Spotless finish, crisp trigger, no slop in any of the parts. Its just that you can't rack the slide. Not that the slide is tight or stiff or has a heavy recoil spring, you can't pull it back in the normal way you rack the slide on a 1911! Now, if you press down VERY hard on the hood and pull the slide back at the same time it will rack back, but you need a Philadelphia lawyer and two dogs to do it. So I have sent a note to LB as to how they would like to handle this....
Standing by...

 

[farscott]

That is how a Les Baer pistol is delivered. The owner is supposed to break the gun in by shooting it. After a thousand rounds or so, the pistol will be much easier to mainipulate. Have him or her shoot the pistol without cleaning. Just shake off the excess CLP and go to the range.

To rack the slide on a NIB LB pistol, curl your hand around the pistol with the palm of your hand on the grip safety and your fingers on the slide behind the barrel hood. Squeeze your hand like you are making a fist, and you should be able to use your weak hand to retract the slide.

The teardown on a LB pistol is a PITA due to the barrel to barrel bushing fit. I like to remove the slide stop, remove the slide from the frame, remove the recoil spring and guide, and push the barrel out of battery. Then the bushing can be turned. Trying to turn the bushing on the barrel when the barrel is locked into the slide will destroy a plastic bushing wrench.

Not saying LB is right, but that is how his pistols are built.

 

[Chuck R.]

My Baer came the same way, tighter than hell. Now after close to 3K, it’s smoothed up, but still tight. It’s normal for a Baer.

As farscott said, it’s much easier to get the bushing turned if you push the slide out of battery. I can now disassemble mine without a wrench as long as it’s out of battery by about .25”. I stick an old buffer between the slide and the barrel hood, then dissasemble as normal.

Chuck

 

[1911Tuner]

Tight

Slurry it...(Do a search on the word)

Cheers!

 

[Tim Burke]

All 3 of my LBs came that way. I thought they were too tight. All 3 of them worked from the gitgo; it didn't seem to matter what I thought.

 

[HD]

put 3-5k rnds thru it before the slurry...

 

[Chris Rhines]

If that is normal for a Les Baer pistol, then Les Baer needs to change something. The pistol was completely unusable in its out-of-the-box condition. I don't consider having to press down on the barrel hood to cycle the slide to be an acceptable state for a pistol to be shipped in. Particularly not a $1700 semi-custom 1911A1.

Nice gun, otherwise. Don't particularly like the Novak sites, but hey...

- Chris

 

[Peter M. Eick]

Sounds normal for a Baer. My 3 Baer's were the same way. What always amazed me is if you can get a round in the chamber, it is quite reliable. It took around 750 rounds to break in my 10mm and maybe 300 to get my 45 acp into shape. Great guns once they are worn in a bit. You pay a lot extra for that hard fit quality.

 

[jrhines]

So let's see now! I tell my client to put 3 or 4 thousand rounds through his new pistol and it might work like a 1911, you know, where you grasp the slide with one hand and the grip with the other, apply something less than 35 lbs of force to it and the slide opens. Neat! As I said, this isn't stiff, this is unuseable. Ya' can't get the first round into the chamber without extensive manipulation of the gun. If it needs to be poked, prodded, tweaked, cajoled, slurried or shot x-thousand times before it works like a gun, that sounds like something the smith/manufacture needs to do. IMHO the hardest thing about using a "good" 1911 should be getting the last round into the magazine. YMMV

 

[jrhines]

Just to be certain that I am clear. This is NOT a frame to slide fit problem, that is as smooth as butter once you get the thing open. This is getting the barrel to link down enough to allow the slide to retract. To open the slide you have to press down on the barrel hood VERY HARD (like tap it with a plastic mallet hard).
Then you can retract the slide. Seems something is amiss, maybe not.

 

[Peter M. Eick]

I am not a smith by any stretch, but what you describe is a classic Les Baer hard fit gun. All of mine were similar, maybe not that tight, but the first time I tried to open my PII 45acp, I sliced my thumb open on the slide because I did not grab it tight enough. Off to the medicine cabinet for some first aid then back to the gun and get the blood off it.

Once you get a round in the chamber it will work. Mine all did and it would feed every round, even the last one from the magazine.

I assume it did come soaked in oil in a plastic bag right? It should be ready to go.

 

[1911Tuner]

re:

Just to be certain that I am clear. This is NOT a frame to slide fit problem, that is as smooth as butter once you get the thing open. This is getting the barrel to link down enough to allow the slide to retract. To open the slide you have to press down on the barrel hood VERY HARD (like tap it with a plastic mallet hard).
Then you can retract the slide. Seems something is amiss, maybe not.

Slurry it. Coat the upper and lower lugs, slidestop pin, hood/breechface area, and the sides of the barrel chamber area and hand-cycle it 100 times...
reapply the slurry and repeat until the gun will unlock without having to use a hammer.

Slurry recipe:

J&B Bore Cleaner and CLP Breakfree...or any other teflon-based oil. A teaspoonful of bore cleaner in a cup. Stir in the oil until it will just sag off the end of a screwdriver, but just before dripping. Let stand open overnight and restir thoroughly before use. Apply liberally and often.

 

[Old Fuff]

jrhines:

As a matter of personal opinion I think that any handgun that’s represented to be a weapon should work out-of-the-box.

I suspect that the barrel is either binding between the hood and slide, or the hood is a few thousandths too long and a top lug is a force-fit in the matching groove in the slide. Another possibility is that the bottom lug is wedging on the slide stop pin - if it has a "hard-fit" barrel. I suppose you could break it in by firing x-number of rounds through it, but I would use a felt-tip marker at the above mentioned points to determine where the problem was, and remove just enough metal so it worked like it should. A good 'smith should be able to correct it in 15 minutes or less.

In a bullseye match pistol I could see where this level of fitting was desirable. In a weapon I think it's counterproductive.

Return it to the maker and have it corrected...

 

[Chris Rhines]

I suspect that the barrel is either binding between the hood and slide, or the hood is a few thousandths too long and a top lug is a force-fit in the matching groove in the slide. Another possibility is that the bottom lug is wedging on the slide stop pin - if it has a "hard-fit" barrel.

I haven't measured the clearence between the top lug and breechface (I will now that you mention it,) but I suspect that it's the bottom lug that is causing the problem.

I haven't broken the gun down all the way because, as stated, it's a client's gun. He hasn't asked us to fix it (yet...) I am a good (at least a competant) smith, so is Dad, and I have no doubt whatsoever that we could get this gun running in short order. But we shouldn't have to. Not on a $1700 pistol that is, indeed, billed as a fighting tool.

- Chris

 

[Chuck R.]

Before you do anything to the pistol, I’d contact Les Baer. He’s pretty explicit concerning his not fixing his pistols once another gunsmith, whether competent or not, has messed with it.

Les will probably tell your client to get 500 rds of Winchester White Box 230 grain and shoot it, as it came from the box. That’s pretty much the standard Baer break-in.

Mine was about as tight as you describe, but it functioned 100% throughout the 500 rd break-in.

Maybe your client should have done a little more research prior to buying a Bear. I did a bunch of reasearch and knew exactly what I was getting into.

From my experience, and from what I've read; right or wrong, this is the way Baers are.

Chuck

 

[jrhines]

What the kid said, which is why I started this thread...

Just as an exercise/example of how a name builder will handle what, for my nickle, is a problem with their very high end product. Yeah, Chris or I could move some metal around on this thing and have it up and humming in an evening. However, that means I would take on the responsibility for a $1700 gun that my client expects to be delivered in pristine shape. If I ship it back will LB pick up the costs? But if this is how all their guns are delivered (for some reason a work in progress comes to mind), then exactly what was my client expecting? Who picks up my time for taking it to the UPS office? If LB says "not my problem" does my client have me send it back to the seller, who pays? If I fix it then my client or myself is out of pocket unexpectedly.
So let's see what LB says...
By the way, when my client saw the gun this A.M. he said go ahead and fix it. I said that he should expect this thing to be humming from the git go, he shouldn't have to pay me or anyone to get it to work. I tend to agree...

 

[Dean Taylor]

I suggest you not void any warenty you might have from Les Baer by using the slury method until after a call to Les Baer. Perhaps where you bought it will take it back or fix things for you with LB. I suspect you will be told to shoot it in. What you describe is typical or the Les Baers I have handled. I usually can not rack their slides when new. The slury method described by Tuner is a good one but call LB first.

I have a relative that had a new 6 inch LB top of the line 1911 which did not run at a family reunion 2 years ago. My policeman nephew and I "broke it in" with 2K rounds for him and also adjusted the Bomar sights which were way off. He passed the green test where he bought it but now feels he was taken advantage of. I talked to him Christmas day and he said it runs fine and now his favorite 1911.

I agree with Old Fuff it should be excellent out of the box.

Good shooting. Please letrus know how your dealer and LB respond and the results after what ever fix you might do.

Dean
[email protected]
410-952-7848

 

[Jim K]

Gee, those Les Baer pistols are expensive, partly because you have to buy a Norinco so you have a gun that will work in case you encounter a bad guy while you are breaking in the Baer. And people accept this as not only normal but the way it should be?!?!

Jim

 

[HSMITH]

Go shoot it. It really is that simple with a Baer.

 

[TexasRifleman]

Would you return a Corvette to Chevrolet because it used too much gas and was hard on the Goodyears?

What was this guy expecting?

Only a crazy person would buy ANY handgun and expect to stick it in the holster on day one and carry it and it be ready to roll.

LB can charge that much money for a reason, I can't believe someone that would pay for one doesn't know what they are paying for.

 

[jrhines]

TSM - The Vette goes back if I can't get the key in the lock or the doors won't open.
I guess I am crazy that I expect to go to the range day one, load 1 round in the supplied mag, rack the slide using my normal stance and grip that I use on the other 300+ guns that go through my shop every year, fire that round and be on the paper at 50 feet, and in the case of a 1911, have the gun in slidelock. I then expect to load 2 rounds and repeat the same exercise only having to pull the trigger twice. If there are any variations from this, I tend to think, in my own fantasy world, that something is amiss. YMMV

 

[Bill Z]

Only a crazy person would buy ANY handgun and expect to stick it in the holster on day one and carry it and it be ready to roll.

Color me crazy then. Would I trust it without checking it with my carry ammo? No. But I would expect it to run 100% from the get go, anything less than that and the jobis not done.

 

[Chuck R.]

jrhines,

Has the pistol malfunctioned yet? Can the pistol be loaded and fired? Is it possible to at least attempt the break-in?

There could very well be no problem, other than the gun is tighter than you think it should be.

I beginning to think that your client didn’t do any research prior to ordering a Baer. If you ask most Baer owners (and the guys that have replied here) the tightness was and is to be expected. It’s part of the uniqueness of a Baer 1911. Some guys don’t like it, and they are better served by buying a different company’s gun. It doesn't make a tight gun wrong, most Baer owners are extremely pleased with their pistol's reliability and accuracy. Baer will tell you before buying that the pistol require a break-in period, at least he did me

Go shoot it. It really is that simple with a Baer.

If it can be fired, this is the best advice I’ve read.

I understand how your client feels, but I’d really wait to hear what Baer has to say BEFORE I’d attempt to fix anything. All Baers are supposed to be test fired prior to leaving the shop. I hope you post their response, if they did let a bad one get out, it would be nice to know about it.

Chuck

 

[Old Fuff]

Only a crazy person would buy ANY handgun and expect to stick it in the holster on day one and carry it and it be ready to roll.

Tex....

Back some years ago we did exactly that. Even match-garde bullseye guns made by the likes of John Giles, Jimmy Clark, Austin Behlert and Bob Chow that shot sub-three inch machine rest groups at 50 yards (and came with a test target to prove it) could be taken to the range on day-one, be loaded without any special effort, and they'd start ticking from git-go.

At this time, Colt was the only maker of commercial Government Model .45 pistols, and it was very seldom that one wouldn't perform like gangbusters out-of-the-box. They had numerous inspectors' marks, and if a bunch came back to the factory they'd be traced back to somebody, who would either straighten out and fly right of get fired.

No one hesitated to take a new S&W or Colt revolver, load it, and go forth.

This "you got to expect to shoot hundreds or even thousands of rounds through a gun before you can expect it to work" is a relatively recent development - and I'll admit that's the way they make things today. Both Tuner and Jim Keenan are old enough to know exactly what I'm talking about.

I can see both sides in this incident, but Les could save himself some trouble if each pistol that was shipped contained specific instructions about why and how this breaking in process was supposed to be done. Then at least, everyone would know what to expect.

But don't think for a moment that a 1911 pistol has to be broken in. Obviously Uncle Sam's military wouldn't have stayed with the pistol as long as they did if that was the case.

 

[LBTRS]

I can't believe this advice....

I have a Les Baer TRS and it was tight and needed a break-in, however, YOU SHOULD NOT FIRE THE GUN if you need a "plastic mallet" to break the slide loose so you can cycle it. Something is wrong. Contact Baer and he'll take care of you.