Tips for running a SAA Clone in a match

[Corpral_Agarn]

Hi All,

I have the unique opportunity (for me) to run pretty much whatever handgun I want in a "fun match" coming up on the 31st. I won the last IDPA match I competed in, so I thought for a fun match I would mix it up.

I thought it would be fun to run my Uberti SAA clone just to see how it stacked up. I have a 24 bullet belt (Kirkpatrick Leather) and an El Paso Holster. I figure that I will have to keep rounds in pockets given the round count on the stages.

The stages I will be running are here: http://www.nvsa.info/sites/default/files/2011/NVSA FunMatch 1505 AllV2.pdf

Now, I usually shoot my SAA from a position of comfort on a static range shooting paper targets, not moving and shooting and reloading on the clock.

Does THR have any tips (reloading, shooting, etc) for a guy that is looking to run his SAA up against DA revolvers, and trick pistols?

I know I am not going to win, but hey, its a fun match!

Any tips are welcome!

 

[ATLDave]

Bring a sundial for the RO to use as a timer? ;P

 

[Malamute]

I've used a Ruger single action in a couple plate shoots. None required any reloading. Paying attention to your sights goes a long ways to making clean runs. I ended up in about the top 10-15% in one shoot. It was a bit humorous to see so many shoot several high cap magazines worth of ammo and not be able to clean 5 plates. I had someone amused beind me say "Ha! watch this guy!" at first. After a couple runs, I heard someone say, "Hey, watch this guy", in a slightly different tone. Was scads of fun. I use full factory power 250 gr loads, 8 1/2 grs Unique, which run about 925 fps in my 4 5/8" guns.

In one shoot at a cowboy shoot I ended up even with a guy, and the dueling tree stop plate unshot when we ran out of ammo. I quickly punched all the empties out, which I figured was faster than trying to choose a couple chambers and then find them once I had a couple fresh rounds in. I punched all the empties and reloaded two rounds, shot the stop plate, and looked over, the other guy was still fumbling with trying to get empties out.

I put the butt of the grip in my solar plexus, hold the gun and turn the cylinder with my left hand, and punch the empties with the right. I hit them hard enough they end up about 3-4 feet away to my left and a bit behind me, they go out under my left arm. I think the empties (6) are cleared in about 2 seconds. Reloading two shells at a time out of a belt works well, or getting an exact number of shells, all oriented to correct direction from a pocket seems quickest to reload. Vest pockets are too small I think to get shells out of in a hurry. Pants pockets in large loose pants seem to work well. Most jeans are too tight to be very quick. Trying to manipulate unknown numbers of rounds in one hand seems too much to me. Two rounds from a belt works well, doesnt overload your hands or brain. If the cartridges are in the front, they are far easier to load with.

I started shooting on a pair of 22 single actions and shot bazillions of rounds through them when I was a kid and later. What I wrote above seemed to be about the quickest and least fumbling of anything I've tried.

Practice kicking the brass out on the ground rather than trying to molly-coddle them and keep them from getting dirty (EWW!!, ICKY!!). I dont bother with brass of any kind until I'm completely done shooting. I dont care if it gets dirty, walked on, whatever. Try to shut it out of your mind. I've watched so many guys fumble while trying to reload single actions. Its painful to watch. I think some of it comes from trying to keep their brass clean, or just never really practicing or thinking about a quick reload.

I think those that try "leaving the gun in the shooting hand" are barking up the wrong tree. I was never able to manipulate a single action very quickly or very well that way. Maybe I was just doing it wrong. I also dont buy into the idea that single actions are left handed guns. If somebody showed it can be done very fast in that fashion, I'd pay attention, but I've never been able to make much headway with it done the way some suggest.

SA's aint nowhere near as quick as a DA revovler, but isnt nearly as far behind as most seem to try making it.

Thats all I know.

 

[9mmepiphany]

Looks like Ty put together some fun stages...obviously a "fun match" with round counts of 24-28...if I'd known this was on the 31st, I would have talked my group into going up.

Reloading a SAA for this kind of COF will likely be faster if you use the Dump one/Load one method

 

[CraigC]

Reloading a SAA for this kind of COF will likely be faster if you use the Dump one/Load one method

No way. Much, much faster to dump all and reload all.

 

[Red Cent]

What CraigC said.

Shooting: Strong hand acquires the shooting grip. Weak hand in a support position and to cock the handgun shot after shot.

Go to half cock and roll the handgun counter clockwise to the left hand (right handed) and use the middle finger and thumb to rotate cylinder and strong hand working the ejector rod. When the cylinder is rotated past a "click", a slight backwards pressure for an instant aligns hole with ejector rod.
The important part is having the rounds to reload in proper position. SASS shooters need five rounds and they are usually are on a belt in the 2:00 position riding high and clear.
Bullet holder slide: http://www.mernickleholsters.com/cagf/cagf-ref1/gf1r1.html

 

[9mmepiphany]

I defer to the men with more experience with the SAA

It was just something I once read...I think it was from Thell Reed; it has been 30+ years since I read it

 

[Red Cent]

Yeah, but Thell Reed wasn't human.

The TR way should be a little faster. One revolution of the cylinder. However, I can speak to the sequence being a little difficult (for me). I have ran into brain fade when an empty became stubborn requiring a change in sequence.

Another tip to the OP. Cylinder gauge or case gauge your rounds before the match. Especially if they are reloads.

 

[Panzerschwein]

Bring a sundial for the RO to use as a timer? ;P

LOL! You're telling the truth!

Great as the old guns are, they're no match for a modern auto or double action swing out cylinder revolver. OP, I hope you don't plan on winning this match!

 

[9mmepiphany]

I'm rallying the local troops, we might make the trip.

You'll know us if we make it. Bunch of Asians wearing shirts that say Team Asia

 

[Malamute]

I'm also thinking dumping them all and reloading them all is quicker. It keeps the hand movement to a minimum, and lets the brain do one thing at a time rather than switching back and forth.

Great as the old guns are, they're no match for a modern auto or double action swing out cylinder revolver. OP, I hope you don't plan on winning this match!

I dont believe anyone thinks they would win a match against autoloaders or DA guns, but I would venture a semi-educated guess that if you took speed loaders out of the equation with a double action revolver, there isnt as much time difference as most people think with an experienced SA shooter.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

I am very used to loading, unloading, and shooting Single Action Revolvers. I wouldn't dream of trying to unload one chamber at a time. Pretty much agree with Malamute and Red Cent. Put the gun in your left hand (assuming you are a righty) with the loading gate up. Put the hammer at half cock and work the cylinder with the thumb and one finger of the hand holding he gun. Punching the empties out is important. The ejector rod of most Single Actions does not have enough stroke to clear empties out of the cylinder. They need to be punched out with some vigor.

About the belt with 24 rounds on it. I discovered a long time ago that 24 or 25 rounds of 45 Colt in a gun belt made the rig way too heavy. I seldom carry more than 3 or 4 extra rounds in my belt loops. Of course in CAS reloads are actually pretty rare these days. And I have never shot a stage where more than 10 or maybe 12 at most rounds were fired out of two guns. Can't help you much with how to carry all that ammo for a stage that requires 24 or so shots.

One thing nobody has mentioned. It is an iron clad rule in CAS that revolvers are NEVER loaded with more than five rounds, and the hammer must always be down on an empty chamber. Even with a transfer bar equipped Ruger, so the playing field is level for everybody.

Dunno how the folks running your event will look at shooting a Single Action. Just remember, no traditional Single Action with a Colt type mechanism (like your Uberti) is safe with the hammer down on a loaded chamber. Even if you ear the hammer back to the so called 'safety cock notch'. Drop the gun so that it lands on the hammer on a hard surface and it WILL fire. Even with the hammer back on the so called 'safety cock notch'.

If you decide to just go with five in the cylinder, the way to do it is to load one, skip one chamber, then load four more. Then bring the hammer all the way back to full cock and lower it carefully. Never lower the hammer from half cock. If you did it correctly, the hammer will be down on the empty chamber.

If you decide to load six, don't drop the gun.

One other thing. A match is no place to try something new. Too much pressure and adrenaline running. Practice loading and unloading your pistol a whole lot before the match. Get some snap caps so you can practice safely, don't practice with live rounds unless you are at the range. Remember to always keep the muzzle down range while handling the revolver. If you practice with snap caps you can do it anywhere and anytime. Practice a lot so when you get to the match you will be confident in your gun handling abilities.

 

[Crunchy Frog]

And remember, "the fastest reload is a second gun"!

 

[Old Fuff]

Just remember, no traditional Single Action with a Colt type mechanism (like your Uberti) is safe with the hammer down on an empty chamber.

I think you met, "is safe with the hammer down on a loaded chamber."

I wouldn't nit-pick except for the possibility we're dealing with a single action novice.

And I strongly suggest that Corpral_Agarn look around for a Cowboy Action Shooting (CAS) or Single Action Shooting Society (SASS) sponsored match where his six-shooter will be far more appropriate and he can learn the ropes from some real pros.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

I think you met, "is safe with the hammer down on a loaded chamber."

Ooops! Thanks for picking that nit.

 

[Malamute]

Punching the empties out is important. The ejector rod of most Single Actions does not have enough stroke to clear empties out of the cylinder. They need to be punched out with some vigor.

I've had empties stick in dirty chambers a couple times, even with a fairly vigorous punch on the rod.

In tinkering with my Rugers, I decided to shorten and reshape the factory base pin. I removed the big flange, shortened it a groove or two and added a groove or two, giving it more of a Colt style look. I found it also gave the ejector rod a bit more room, though the spring stacked up. I then cut about 6 or 7 coils off the ejector rod spring, stretched it (important), then I found it needed to be compressed and let fly back several times. It gave noticably more ejector stroke. I dont think I've had a case fail to clear the gun when ejecting since. I added crescent or bullseye style rods/buttons also. Gives a bit more to get ahold of. Have also seen Mr Linebaughs work where he checkered the factory button, which is an improvement.

And I strongly suggest that Corpral_Agarn look around for a Cowboy Action Shooting (CAS) or Single Action Shooting Society (SASS) sponsored match where his six-shooter will be far more appropriate and he can learn the ropes from some real pros.

I agree, its a good idea for learning. I have to say though, I think I had more fun shooting modern steel plate shoots with a single action as I have cowboy shoots. May be I just have an odd sense of fun. My times with the Ruger 45 were almost the same as my times with a Smith 19 on 5 plate shoots, and better with the single action as with a 1911 on a 6 plate rack. I just tend to shoot revolvers better overall than I can autos. No question autos reload faster, but the first rack was fair.

 

[WestKentucky]

If your serious about it, I would be very inclined to make an oversized ejector handle. They are as simple as bending a properly sized rod to the proper length. Having a 2" handle to work would seemingly be easier and more reliable than the 1/2" blade on most SAA.

I can't believe I'm suggesting tactical bits for a SAA, holster may be more difficult than the gun modification... Just don't fan it.

 

[Corpral_Agarn]

That's why I love The High Road

Wow, thanks all!

Lots of good info here.

I have been practicing ejecting shells around the house quite a bit. No Snap caps yet, so I will have to just have to figure how to load on the stage

Like I said, I was Match Champion at my last IDPA match and being aware of your presence on the stage (ie where you are pointing that thing(!), no crossing the body) are all pretty well drilled into me.

I will say that as I do not intend on winning this match (its a single action, come on) I will be taking it slow and deliberate. I will run like hell when it is time, but when it comes to working the piece, fast is slow... slow is fast.

For reloads, I think that the best is what was described as working the cylinder with the left hand and the ejector rod with the right. I will pop them all out before reload because, honestly, I am not yet coordinated with the eject-one-load-one method.

I will start with five in the gun for sure. Safety is way more important than the extra round. I have been doing the load-one-skip-one for a while now and it is the best method there is. I think that when it comes time to reload on the stage, I will pop in all six because they are going to get shot anyway.

Still not sure what to do about all the ammo I need. I am thinking a pouch of some kind with rounds loose may be the best I can put together.
Driftwood mentioned the weight of a fully loaded rig and I can confirm: it gets heavy!

Anyway thanks all for the tips!

I am actually more excited about this match than I was before reading all the posts!

Thanks again!

 

[rcmodel]

What kind of holster would work with a 2" ejector rod 'handle'??

There is nothing wrong with the typical Colt SAA ejector rod.

The trick you have to know is spinning the cylinder with the left hand aligning the chambers, while punching the empties out with the right hand.

Then doing it again stuffing loads back in.

It's like rubbing your tummy and patting your head at the same time.

Until you have practiced it a million times and it becomes all muscle memory under pressure.

rc

 

[UncleEd]

This is purely working from memory, but when reloading was more common in SASS/CAS I think the best of the best could empty and reload in about 20 seconds.

The little I practiced it while standing still from belt loops was about 40 seconds.

Again, only working from memory which ain't what it used to be. (That's why it's easier these days to just make things up and go with that. )

 

[the Black Spot]

Too bad you dont have a couple extra cylinders.
I can swap cylinders on my 1860 colt faster than i can reload a SA. It is even faster on an 1858 remmie.

 

[Corpral_Agarn]

I'm rallying the local troops, we might make the trip.

You'll know us if we make it. Bunch of Asians wearing shirts that say Team Asia

I hope you do make it out!

If you do, I will be the guy in a cowboy hat and a SAA on his hip!

Oh, and wearing a Down Range Indoor Training polo (black and red)

 

[CraigC]

I've been thinking (dangerous!) and I'm gonna throw out some stuff. I don't know how Thell Reed does it but I agree that he ain't human and whatever it is he does, I'm sure it's fast & efficient.

Here's how I normally unload. I open the gate, put the hammer on the half cock notch and shift the sixgun to my left hand, operating the ejector with my right thumb, collecting the empties in my left palm. They are then either tossed (.22LR) or dropped in a bucket (centerfire):


I then transfer it back to the right hand, grab all five cartridges in the left hand and load with it.

I've seen a pic of Clint Smith shooting in CAS and the amazing thing was that he was unloading one SAA with his left hand while shooting another with his right. Might've been Taffin's CAS book. I've never been able to find the pic online but here's my version. I couldn't do it exactly like Clint, without pressing the butt against my belly. With this method, no belly required. Operate the ejector with the index finger, rotating the cylinder with the thumb. The left hand is free to load. Or you could do it more like Clint Smith, unloading with the left hand while reloading with the right. Theoretically, if one was practiced enough, you could eject your empties with the right hand while reloading with the left. I've never done this one round at a time.





If I had a third hand to operate the remote (or if my wife was not gone shopping), I could take pictures of my loading procedure.

Great as the old guns are, they're no match for a modern auto or double action swing out cylinder revolver.

As was posted, take speedloaders out of the equation and the results will be little different between the SA and DA, in skilled hands.

 

[CraigC]

This is about how Clint Smith does it but I never load with my right hand so I'm not worth a damn doing it the other way. It's tough to get used to.

 

[BCRider]

Given that it's a fun match what are the chances for a "New York Reload" with the second revolver then carry on with reloading after the first 10 pills are on their way downrange?

I'll just chime in with the hint to tilt the gun strongly up for ejecting and down for reloading. If the chambers are clean the rounds should fall right into place. Especially if you're using revolvers with the original Colt style action. And if you point the gun down and rotate the gun a little more than the 90 degrees you'll find that the rounds lay in the loading gate like a chute leading right to the chambers. When done in this way you just barely need to get the bullet end started and then let go and the rounds fall into the chambers like a fresh caught fish sliding off a wet cleaning board.

For some time now I've threatened to use my cowboy action guns in our own monthly fun shoots. And since I know I'd be the only one doing this I can pretty much make up my own rules.... I must admit that while the NYR sounds nice I'd be worried about the second gun jumping around in the holster when moving.

On the 5 vs 6 thing in this case I guess it would depend a bit on the gun. Vaqueros are certainly safe to load all 6. And some of the newer Italian guns are similarly safe thanks to the use of transfer bars. And since you/we are only loading right at the starting position is it really that big a deal to load all 6 and leave the gun either on the half cock notch or to lower and use the safety notch? I understand about the drop issue. But how many times have you drawn for a cowboy match and not dropped your gun? Is it going to change THIS time? Especially since it's for fun and you can easily afford the extra 1/4 second to ensure you have a good hold.

Whatever you use for holding the extra loads just be sure it's a pocket or pouch that you can reach into easily and that it doesn't try to lift with your hand and trap it when you've got a fistful of rounds in your mitt. If you have speed loader pouches already I'd be inclined to just load those up with 7 or 8 rounds each so that they stand on end. That'll give you a couple of fumble freebies to work with at each load. On the other hand if you can set up something where you can grab two or even three rounds by their rims it's pretty easy to hold them bullets forward and pop each in with your loading hand acting like an organic speed strip.

Ya know..... with the right setup for holding the cartridges and a bit of practice shucking the empties and seeing how often revolver shooters with speed loaders end up fumbling around I'd be willing to bet that a well run SAA would not be all that much slower than a hand ejector revolver. Oh, it'll for sure be slower. But not by as much as some might suspect.