Tj Maxx Hostage

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My credit union branch was robbed the other day. Not particularly earth-shattering to me, I haven't physically visited it in years, but still made me think. It's a grocery store branch near the front door of the establishment.

Watching this story prompted a conversation with my wife about it. Whether it's a bank, a store, a drugstore, etc, most of these robberies are a meth or opiate addict trying to score forty bucks. No one comes close to getting hurt. (Most of them don't even involve a gun.) I told my wife, if I think this is all it is, I won't do anything. All drawing will do is get someone who didn't originally plan on hurting anyone to start shooting.

If they are holding a hostage it has obviously escalated past that. Now, I'm pretty good, but I don't LIKE the idea of quick-drawing and putting a bullet past the hostage's ear. Hostage situations are pretty rare, and most of the time they are de-escalated. If the BG TAKES a hostage, this means he is not yet committed to killing them. The longer they wait and negotiate, the lower the likelihood anyone is going to get killed. Understanding of course that when people pull guns out, all kinds of bizarre things happen, but the only time I see myself having the advantage in a hostage situation is if I have a profile shot of the BG, he's sitting still, and he doesn't know I'm there. If then, MAYBE. It will depend on if I really think someone's life is in imminent danger in THIS particular case.

But realistically, hostage situations are extremely rare, and I am VERY reluctant to defend third parties I do not know.
 
Maybe intervene...

But first, make sure you have a second trauma plate duct-taped to your back, with ceramic plates in a briefcase, which you could use to shield your head. Also, I'm not sure what you're carrying, but you ought to upgrade to an MP5K with red dot sights, and the "deadly duo" of a Glock 23 & 27.


Okay, seriously though. You don't want to get into a shootout. If you're going to fight, you want the element of surprise. If they board up the place, they don't plan on going anywhere anytime soon. This may give you a chance to wait for the right moment to act. Pulling out your gun at the first sign of trouble may or may not be a good move. They might be expecting to encounter resistance at the outset. If they come in brandishing long guns, it may be best to sit tight until they think they have the situation under control. But then again, your best bet may be to start shooting once you see them pointing the guns at people. Who knows what they may be planning? At that point you don't know if it's going to be a killing spree, or a robbery, or a hostage situation.

There are just too many ifs. Fight when you are best able to, if lives are at stake.
Think fast, and hope luck/God is on your side.
 
"What would you do?" is almost impossible to answer, but there are some considerations:

The best time to counterattack is immediately after being attacked while the BG's are still disorganized. If you decide to engage, and you have a good ammo supply, you may be able to break up the whole situation. Bad guys don't want to get shot either. If you can get behind cover and start sending rounds their way, they may decide that enough is enough.

Or they may overwhelm you with rifle-fire and splatter you all over the floor.

All hard-guy talk aside, though, I have no intention of getting tied up and stuck in front of a store window with an AK at my back and a SWAT .308 at my front.
 
When we think about the kinds of situations that involve multiple bad guys, each of whom is armed, there are some conclusions that I think are pretty clear:

1) It is better to be armed with a high-capacity autopistol than it is to be armed with a 2" five-round snubby (or a mousegun). The only caveat to this conclusion is that an autopistol in a strong-side holster might be sniffed out a little bit more easily by a bad guy that is rounding up hostages than a snubby in a pocket or ankle holster.

2) It is better to carry spare ammo than to leave that ammo in the safe at home.

3) It is better to get training in techniques for engaging multiple targets quickly and accurately, shooting from behind cover and concealment, and shooting while moving than to try to invent these skills at the moment they are needed. Also, after getting training, those who practice regularly will be much better off than those who don't.

It's interesting that the same conclusions also apply to single shooter situations (like Trolley Square in SLC) as well as to garden-variety assaults and robberies (and many other situations discussed in S&T).

What other conclusions would you add to this list?
 
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"Somehow, the gunmen managed to escape as SWAT team." Sad that they do not even know how.

I agree with pretty much everything said, it obviously "depends" on a lot of things.

My one thing to ponder; even though I agree, I would probably react to the situation if armed; what does LEO see when they have heard "hostage/terrorist shooting situation", and they come in after a flash bang to see you holding a gun. I would hope they'd yell "police, drop it" but we all know some are a little zealous. It'd be horrible to be the gun downed hero who saved the day just before the cops busted in.

As I said, I would probably still try to interfere with the situation. Especially when family is considered, or being tied up. But the being shot by LEO would linger in the back of my mind the whole time. If I ever had the chance I'd immediately be on the cell with dispatch telling them I'm armed, what I'm wearing, and what I'm shooting and to PLEASE WITH THE LOVE OF GOD forward all of this information to responding LEO so I am not shot!
 
I had a longer addtition to this going but something happened. So here goes the short version.
Nobody is ragging on the people that say they would try to stay out of conflict and just try to cooperate and hope to be safe. So don't rage on me for saying that I probly wouldn't jsut sit by and do nothing.
For those of use that got their CCW permit with the intent of using the weapon when they need to, then I hope you are in the same store as me if some thing happens in it. And if you got your CCW permit and or carry and think that is all you need to keep you safe then pleas steer clear of me. And if you don't plan on using the weapon that you carry, then don't buy any more and leave them for me to buy. That way when TSHTF, I've got more to protect me and mine.
I said probly, would most likely. I didn't say "when some has a gun or pulls a gun, I pull mine" I'm not trigger happy. I'm not just out for my self. I'm not dilusional. I'm prepared. planned, and calculating. If I wasn't prepared, then I wouldn't have gotten my CCW.
I'll take my chances with the group of bare handed people ready to fight back, then the one person with a gun that is going to hide in the corner and wait to be found out.
Sorry, that's just me.
 
But you know what? I expected the response that I got. But we are all here able to post and discuss this because of the first people that had guns and didn't get "hearded into a back room" This contries founding fathers used the guns they had, and faught back against the BG that were trying to hold them hostage. Alot of them got hurt and killed, but I'm glad there were brave people that fought back, knowing that they would probly be killed. Were the people that fought back and got others with them killed, punished for the ones that got hurt? NO! They are some of this countries first, and greates heros because they didn't sit back, wait, and hope they would be ok. I hope this country still has people that will stand up and fight. Oh wait we do, they are deployed right now. Stationed on bases around the world. Fighting for me, my neighbor, their neighbors, and their family so that I can live my life without fear. So that you can live your life free to go shopping at TJ MAXX. I'm able to get my CCW because of the people that fought, and fight back today, and will be fighting back tomorrow.
I'm going off on a tangent here, but bare with me. If you're not going to fight back, then stay home and cower like the BG's hope you will. Hide like the gun lobyist do, while our right to defend our selves is taken away "for our safety". They for get that they are able to be in Washington because of the "crazys with guns". they want to take away the comon mans right to have guns, but you dont' see their body guards walking around them with sticks or "the mighty pen". No. Guess what? they have guns too. The only way for the bad guys to not have guns is to get ride of every gun in the world. And since that isn't going to happen, you damn sure aren't going to take mine.
I'm sorry to go on like this. But I get really pissed of when some one criticises me, or says I shouldn't defend my self. And just like I would befend my self or someone else out in the real world, I'm going to defend my self here.
 
I know most of that post belongs in another thread. Move it if you see fit, and I will continue it there. And pardon the grammer, but I'm at the hospital right now with my son, so I'm a little distracted.
 
Nope.

No one has told you not to defend yourself. I've simply suggested that when confronted by numerous armed gunmen. it would be unwise (without proper training, tools, know how, etc.) to engage in a fire fight with them, while numerous innocent lives are at stake. You are responsible for your safety. You are not responsible for my safety, my families, nor the rest of the shoppers in TJ MAXX. You are however accountable for any actions you take wherein you could, may, most likely (however you want to put it) endanger the lives of others. I commend your bravery and gusto, that you believe you would act with valor in such a situation to defend your life, and the lives of other. I am quite certain I would not. I would undoubtedly be the first person out the door (behind my family). It would piss me off to have a gunman open fire, only after you decided to go all Bruce Willis on them. I wish you the best of luck if you ever happen to find yourself in such a situation, believe me, YOU will need it.
Furthermore, don't compare yourself and defending the world with your "CCW permit" to our armed services and/or revolutionary heroes. It's a very far stretch, and insulting.
 
I did not compare my self to our armed forces. However, our "revolutionary heros" were people just like me and the some of the people on this board that would step up and defend themselves and others. They were ordinary citizens like me and my neighbors. If you do want to be help, then stay behind and take your chances. And don't worry about the rest of the innocent people your're leaving behind as you run out the door. I for one am not going to sit and wait and "hope" for the best.
 
There seems to be scant discussion of S&T in this thread. My thinking would be that, as a general rule, you're probably better to go with the flow and not resist unless and until the time is right. Most situations like this end without the BGs shooting anyone.

However, as others have noted, once they start doing things like tying folks up or herding you en masse, the situation has changed dramatically. This type of behavior is often the prelude to mass murder. My assumption would be that it is then a "kill or be killed" scenario.

I would note that if there are multiple hostage takers involved, you're likely going to be outgunned. The employment of your weapon should be undertaken as part of a strategy for exit, not with the thought that you're going to win a gun battle against multiple armed individuals. Also--and this is vitally important--if the authorities are outside the building and hear gunshots, there is a very high probability that they will be making a forced mass entry with guns blazing. You'd be well-advised to consider how to protect yourself from your would-be rescuers.
 
Mister Mike, my question to those who would say wait and see what happens is what do you do when they start frisking hostages? By then your element of surprise is gone and its likely the innocents as well as the bg's are more concentrated. I'm not saying you make the high noon/rambo stand only that at the first sign of trouble ie. gunshots screaming, that you evaluate and get the heck out or fight your way out. Staying and surrendering especially if armed and found out could have bad results also.
Lest anyone think I'm a coward I might add that a mans obligation to help usher out as many innocent ones as possible goes without saying.
 
Mister Mike, my question to those who would say wait and see what happens is what do you do when they start frisking hostages?
Click to expand...

I don't claim to have the perfect answer to every conceivable situation, but my feeling would be that you need to actively resist at that point. However, I acknowledge the fact that your strategy of acting while they're still disorganized has some merit, and it avoids the conundrum of what to do in the scenario you've proposed.

Though this may be of scant help, I really do think you need to trust your instincts. If at the moment of the intrusion you feel your best chance of survival is active resistance, you should do it. Particularly if the BGs come in and start using force, I don't see that you have much to lose--they could very well escalate the violence at any moment, and you and yours could easily become the target of their malice.

However, as noted somewhere above, most hostage situations don't start out with the offenders intending to take hostages. It evolves because the perps get trapped. If you don't sense an immediate threat and it appears that the BGs are going to get their money and get out of Dodge without loss of life, then I'd say let 'em go for it.
 
The depressing part of this scenario is that there's so few CCers out there as a percentage of the populace, that if you do try to stand up, you may be the only one in a man vs force encounter. That's the part that truly disturbs me, as there's a very slim chance of making it out alive....possibly even less slim than laying low. It's a catch-22 in that manner.

I suppose if one has taken extensive tactical firearms courses, to where they are capable of that type of pistol combat, it would be an easier decision...for me, the idea scares the hell out of me. I can probably down one of them, but then I'm playing hide and seek with two or more assailants....at the best, they'd run out of ammo....at the worst, The coroner gets to meet me. More towards the latter.
 
I've been on the outside of a standoff before. I have no desire to be on the inside.

If a group of armed men bust into the Bed Bath and Beyond (or wherever :uhoh: ) while I'm shopping, I just hope I have the presence of mind to check behind me for my girlfriend as I navigate with my soiled pants to the back exit. I'm not Casey Ryback. Now, will I gear up in the parking lot and go back in with the entry team? After I change my pants, absolutely.

Taking on a group of bad guys armed with rifles and unknown amounts of training is not something I feel the need to do without a lot of backup.
 
I have always heard that if you take the time to think about the situation it is then too late to safely take any type of action against the BG's. Most of our Hero's have earned that title for not thinking about their own safety or the consequences and have taken immediate action. Sad to say, but most Hero's get the recognition of being a Hero posthumously.

I guess I can be placed in the Thinker Group.
 
This is in fact too complex to throw a statement out. It becomes a contest of anecdotes and hypothetical arguments.

Remember, that in war you fight on when your comrade falls. In crime, when one of theres goes down they tend to run away.

Most hostage situations can be resolved by the police, but in the post 9/11 world are any of us going to allow that to happen (being taken hostage) if we can stop it?

http://www.spike.com/full-episode/mall-shooting/34334

http://www.spike.com/full-episode/home-invasion/33895

I hope that the above can help give you context and ideas.
 
Our gov. has color alerts, there is ample evidence that these terror plots are in the works, our LE has plans to react to active shooter and terror acts.
There is no reason for people to think that the US is not due to see greater acts of terrorism in the future IMO so the discussion is a helpful thing.
Even in places that have these acts of violence as commonplace its fair to say most people won't be involved but if you are I think some thought ahead of time would be in order.
 
As far as the hypothectical situation the o.p. offered, and considering you are carrying a handgun, and perhaps other shoppers are legally carrying handguns, then you counting on others to "join forces" with you, there is one very, very important thing to consider.

How do you know if one, or two, of the other "good Samaritans" is not actually in cahoots with the bad guys??

In police parlance, there is what is known as a "layback man" (or woman), or a "back shooter." You just might be depending on one of these to help you thwart the bad guys when in fact he or she comes over and puts a bullet in the back of your head.

I know of two specific, separate cases of bank robbery when two off-duty, armed peace officers confronted robbers at the teller's window, only to have a "layback" man come up behind them and blow out their brains. One of the Layback shooters was a man and the other was a woman.

Not every bad guy, or gal, looks like a bad guy or gal.

So .... you'd better know who your "allies" are in a "real" situation such as the o.p. posted, before you drag out your cannon and start shooting bad guys..

L.W.
 
I figure the most dangerous time/place is when you're checking out at the register near the front doors.

Statistically, you're less likely to be at the check out line.... hopefully that odd will be in your favor.

Assuming I'm with my wife and/or daughter...

I figure in a big store like that it would be best to hopefully get out the back door or fire exit quick.

If that doesnt work, take cover/hide so that hopefully the BG's can only approach you from one direction. Draw my weapon.

If I'm with my daughter.... she has already text'ed every LEA with-in 200 miles. :rolleyes:

If I'm with my wife.... she has already called every LEA with-in 100 miles. :rolleyes:

If I'm not with either.... I'm still fumbling with my phone wondering how do I call anyone besides my wife or daughter. :rolleyes:

Hopefully the 3 sided coverage would allow me to take what ever action needed to stay alive.

If something terrible like that happened to me.... in a perfect world... thats what I would do.

That... and the BG's would get mauled by the police dogs on their way out the door. :evil:
 
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Hostage situations are probably the most complex and complicated "potentially dangerous" situations that there can be.

I don't think it's a good idea to go drawing down and opening fire unless there is an immediate and unarguable lethal threat - i.e. the bad guys have just announced that they're going to kill everyone and start herding people into a back room. But then, I don't think it's a good idea in any situation to draw my gun unless every other option - and I emphasize every - option has been exhausted. Things get very messy very fast when firearms start appearing unexpectedly.

As other people have mentioned here, criminals take hostages because they're trapped and they want to escape. Rarely, and I do mean very rarely, the hostage taking is the intent all along in order to get media attention, in which case your likelihood of being killed just went way, way up, but your average hostage situation requires that the hostages be alive, because at that point the bad guys know that the only thing between them and a sharpshooter's bullet is another living body.

Someone here suggested a counterattack at the outset of the situation, which I can't disagree with more. As time wears on and the bad guys get comfortable with the idea that they're in control, their trigger fingers will get less itchy and twitchy. If someone draws a gun as soon as they make their presence known (while they're prepared for violence and willing to use it to establish control), not only is there a good chance that the "heroic" civilian gets himself killed but he'll probably get everyone else in the place killed too. One murder or twenty, the penalty for the bad guy is effectively the same. Contrary to Hollywood's portrayal, most criminals aren't cool, collected pros. They're scared and that's what makes them dangerous. Don't give them a reason to fear you.
 
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