TN: Antioch HOA banning firearms from the property

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by rnchick, Mar 19, 2007.

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  1. rnchick

    rnchick Member

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    http://www.newschannel5.com/global/story.asp?s=6242822

    Community Suggests Gun Possession Is Illegal For Residents

    March 18, 2007 02:02 AM

    ANTIOCH, Tenn.- Some people in a Nashville neighborhood are furious over a new rule that makes it illegal to own a gun.

    Residents in Nashboro Village said it's unconstitutional and leaves them defenseless.

    Two weeks ago, residents received a from their homeowners' association indicating that guns are not allowed on the property.

    "It thought it was ironic that they say you can't have something when the United States government says you can," said resident Cristina Salajanu.

    Salajanu would like to give her neighborhood management company a history lesson.

    "I think it's unconstitutional," Salajanu said. "They can't tell you what to own or not to own in your own house."

    Salajanu is talking about the Bill of Rights, specifically the Second Amendment, which grants citizens the right to keep and bear arms. It's been an American freedom for 215 years but Salajanu and other residents said it's been taken away from them.

    "Something needs to be done," she said.

    Two weeks ago, the property management company at Nashboro Village told its residents no more guns on the property.

    "It incensed me that it was written the way it was," said a resident who asked not to be identified.

    She said there is a serious need to feel protected here and a firearm can do that.

    "We've got dark areas, the lighting is very definitely very dim," she said.

    Salajanu said that burglaries started to increase since late summer...

    She said she believes her neighborhood has changed since she moved in last year.

    "Three weeks ago someone was stopped at gunpoint," Salajanu said. "It seems the nature of those burglaries is becoming more dangerous."

    Some residents at Nashboro Village have campaigned for better lighting and more security but if they can't get either they at least want their Second Amendment rights upheld.

    "If I'm walking if I'm walking my dog or if I am outside walking and if I don't feel safe and I'm licensed then I'll carry a gun," said the resident who did not want her identity disclosed.

    Officials with Ghertner and Company, the property manager at Nashboro Village, would not make an on-camera comment about the gun policy but said they plan on changing the rule soon to allow firearms on the property.

    However, they would make it illegal to fire those guns, which residents say is still unconstitutional.

    Neighbors said they understand the gun rule is meant to keep criminals out of Nashboro Village but they don't believe that prohibiting firearms is the best way to do that.
     
  2. vis-à-vis

    vis-à-vis Member

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    Maybe it will go to court and we'll get another pro-2A ruling similar to DC. I'd break that rule.
     
  3. bensdad

    bensdad Member

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    No way on earth this holds up in court.
     
  4. Doggy Daddy

    Doggy Daddy Member

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    And this is an example of the reasons I won't live where there's an HOA! :cuss:
     
  5. The Deer Hunter

    The Deer Hunter Member

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    That would be ironic. You can have a gun, but if your home is invaded you cant shoot the badguys.
     
  6. Sindawe

    Sindawe Member

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    I saw that article this morning on the HOA Nut House web site. Rather bites for the folks living there, but I have to wonder where those folks were during the HOA board meetings? This kind of thing would have been discussed at the meetings and voted on. Should have also been in the meeting minutes.

    Oh, wait. Thats right. Few people ever bother to attend such meetings unless they want to belly-ache about something or think they are gonna get free money.
     
  7. mp510

    mp510 Member

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    It very well may. HOA's have been allowed by the courts to get away with a lot over the years. :uhoh:
     
  8. shaggycat

    shaggycat Member

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    Hmmmm, if one was planning on robbing a house, I wonder, in which subdivision would said person start?

    DUH!:banghead:
     
  9. thexrayboy

    thexrayboy Member

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    A HOA dictating that it's members were not allowed to possess firearms in
    their own homes will no more stand up in court than if the same HOA dictated that the homeowners were not allowed to keep cell phones in their house, or plasma tvs, or dirt bikes or skateboards etc etc ad infinitum ad nauseaum.

    The first citizen who gets fined, harassed or sued by this HOA for violating this unenforceable rule will have a nice fat settlement check waiting for them at the end of the trial. What private property you decide to own and keep in side your house is not open for regulation outside of the legislative process.


    Classic blissninny dogooders operating HUA again.
     
  10. TargetTerror

    TargetTerror Member

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    I'm a little confused here. What exactly is HOA? Is this a Home Owners Association? If this is one of those collective neighborhoods, which is setup similar to a condo in that there are collective fees and rules, then they may very well be able to set rules like "no guns."
     
  11. bensdad

    bensdad Member

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    I suppose it depends on the wording of the contract they signed. HOAs can have rules about pets, boats in the driveway, sheds on the property, brick faces on the houses, loud music, cars sitting out, yada,yada,yada. But regulating private property inside the home? I'd be very surprised if this stands the test of litigation.
     
  12. TexasRifleman

    TexasRifleman Moderator Emeritus

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    Dunno, these things stand up pretty well.

    If the clause about firearms was in there up front and the buyer agreed to it, might make it tough.

    You can waive your 5th amendment rights, I suppose you could waive your 2nd

    Now this one sounds like it was an add on so it probably won't stand.
     
  13. Valkman

    Valkman Member

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    Wrong - when you move in you give up all your rights and cannot sue them unless they break the law. We went at it with ours in our previous house for a year before moving. They are always right - and you agree to that when you move in. We caught them in several lies where certain people got what they wanted but it didn't matter for us.

    I'll bet they get away with it.
     
  14. MatthewVanitas

    MatthewVanitas Member

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    I dunno, the libertarian in me seems to think that the HOA is correct. Incredibly, absurdly stupid, but correct.

    An HOA is some sort of unholy agreement you enter into as part of purchasing a property, right? If I voluntarily sign a contract saying that I'll submit to daily hernia checks to work at KoffeeHut, that doesn't violate any rights, correct?

    The HOA isn't preventing you from exercising your inalienable rights, they're just saying that they'll take their ball and go home (well, _your_ home) if you exercise them. Is this not akin to CDWarehouse having the right to not carry a given artist's CD if they disagree with his message?


    Don't get me wrong, I think the HOA is dumb. But it bugs me to have folks use the "OMG!!! The CONSTITUTION!!!" arguments in situations that do not involve government oppression.

    Topping my list is the twits who say that criticizing a journalist on your blog counts as "disrespecting their 1st Amendment rights", and this HOA debacle doesn't seem too far off.

    Can you remove yourself from an HOA by declaring yourself a sovereign household, or do you never really own your own house under and HOA?

    -MV
     
  15. entreus

    entreus Member

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    Not sure they'll be able to enforce this one, but then I've not delt with mine in that depth. My HOA, is very lenient; broke is the word another neighbor used. Anyway a HOA can't make it illegal to have a gun, they can only make it against the rules and fine you for it. Usually all the rule have to reflect local law and ordinances.

    Of course then you may be required to get ride of said firearms to aleviate the fines, which would continue to accrue. Then you can't sell until you pay the fine.....I'd probably end up selling if it was found that they could fine me for my firearms. Not sure how they'd find out though. Already live in a pretty liberal state and people freak out if they think they see a firearm.

    I'm curious what the ruling will be if the local government is asked. Sounds like a headache for someone.
     
  16. Thain

    Thain Member

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    +1 MatthewVanitas

    There is no Constitutional issue here; The residents entered into a covenant (a "contract" for you non-lawyers) with their HOA. If the "No Guns" clause was in that contract when they signed, tough. If the clause was added to the covenant after-the-fact, well, they agreed to that too. It would have been voted on, or otherwise added, as the contract would have spelt out.

    If it wasn't properly adopted, then they have a case.

    Its not a Constitutional issue, its a contract dispute.




    A dumb contract, but there ya go...
     
  17. entreus

    entreus Member

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    To buy the house you have to agree to the cc&r s covenants, conditions & restrictions. They are usually set up by the builder and then turned over to a council of owners.

    No, you can't remove yourself. After a while the rules become less and less enforced, unless you're in some ritzy neighborhood.

    I read our cc&r s thoroughly and didn't find anything I live with. Makes some things a little tougher to do, but then you don't have to worry about the next neighbor having four cars up on blocks and storing garbage in the van until the end of time. I've seen it.....never close to my house thankfully.... :D
     
  18. entreus

    entreus Member

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    Have a HOA, but we also have a great range 2 miles away with a 600yd range. If my HOA tried this, I'd have to find a way to get the president out and someone with better agenda's in.

    Maybe even see if the club could help me out, maybe even the NRA. Since I'm in both. :evil:
     
  19. mons meg

    mons meg Member

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    So, do HOA "covenants" amount to contracts that you sign knowing that they can add stuff to them later?

    How would this be different than signing a lease on an apartment where they included a "no guns" policy? Would that be an enforceable contract?
     
  20. 30 cal slob

    30 cal slob Member

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    there have been several rulings as of late regarding the display of american flags in HOA areas (such as condos, etc). i think these disputes are similar ... the offending homeowner has usually won, IIRC.

    guns can't be too different.
     
  21. mons meg

    mons meg Member

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    Well, unless they pass a rule saying they can come into your house at any time to check for undesirable objects, i don't see how they can even enforce it, assuming state contract law doesn't slap them down.
     
  22. buzz_knox

    buzz_knox Member

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    The home owners actually lose those cases fairly frequently.

    The saving grace here is that while HOAs can heavily regulate what goes on inside the neighborhood, they can only regulate inside the home to the extent it affects property values.
     
  23. mons meg

    mons meg Member

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    To continue that thought, the following excerpt from the Oklahoma State code on contracts would seem to provide a homeowner with plenty of wiggle room with regard to an HOA covenant that goes too far:

    I especially like the good morals part. ;) Note that the Oklahoma Constitution (like many states) expressly protects RKBA:

    I would think that a contract abrogating that right would be unenforceable. IANAL...would a real lawyer care to chime in?
     
  24. Ala Dan

    Ala Dan Member in memoriam

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    If the new rule is allowed to stand, I think I would relocate further east but
    remain in the great state of Tennessee. I've never cared much for Nashville
    or its 'burbs anyway; so this would solidify my decision~! ;) :D
     
  25. Dr. Dickie

    Dr. Dickie Member

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    The bottom line is: Why in the world would anyone live in a HOA?
    You couldn't drop the price of a home low enough to get me to live in one. It's bad enough that with the recent SCOUS rulings we barely actually own the property we live on, to invite some tin-horned dictator from a HOA to rule me on my own land, unthinkable!
     
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