To those who dis the 9mm

Status
Not open for further replies.
Baretta contract

450,000 foreign handguns for U.S Govt?. Why not Ruger SR9 or S&W MP.?More taxpayer dollars to bail out a foreign mfg.What a bunch of jerks we have become,the world hates us but they have thier hands out for our money.
 
Military expanding ammo

MLJDECKARD,

There have been several small reports about the military testing the FEDERAL Expanding FMJ round and an article by Massad AYOUB in GUNS magazine.

The gist is that when fighting irregular troops, the geneva convention prohibition on expanding ammo is not applicable. According to AYOUB, the round is now being redesigned to make the plastic plug in the bullet's nose easier to detect by x-ray.

I would prefer to hear that our troops are getting a good, tested hollow point, but think that would be another "BLACK TALON" fiasco.
Since this is such a new type of round, without a history, it strips many of the arguments that reactionaries will try to use to prevent its adoption.

WILLBRINK,

WHO IS HILTON YAM? LOL

I have learned to not depend on any one writer or authority. I also add in my own experience and saying "it is a training issue" is unrealistic. Yes it is a training issue. It is also a people issue. They both matter.
My agency issues H&K'S and GLOCKS. We do not get a choice. The agency does not care if their is a problem with training. In a beauracy, things only change when there is a scandal, like the FBI massacre in Coral Gables, FL or politicians complain or a lawsuit gets filed.

We are all supposed to carry the same gun, a .40S&W, but management fears that those 9m.m. GLOCK carriers may fail the transition training in large numbers, so we still carry two different guns. How do you settle that, underman the agency? Switch to the less powerful gun? It is never simple.
Training costs money and manpower and my agency does not want to invest in it. Write your congressman.
Until then, easier to control firearms reduce the chance of a miss. No manuel safeties mean a simpler manuel of operation. GLOCKS are popular for this reason among others.

I suggest you read closer. I HAVE NEVER SEEN A 1911 THAT WAS MORE RELIABLE THAN A GLOCK OR BERETTA. I am willing to bet many of the people on this bb will agree. If you were lucky enought to find a perfect gun, that is fine. The ones I bought were not as reliable as the BERETTA. I bought COLT, which was supposed to be the best at the time. It did not matter.


As for the low maintenance, you need to add superior accuracy, firepower and control to your description of the BERETTA.

Jim
 
Um, yeah. We're not getting any HP ammo until the U.S. completely drops all pretense of following the Hague accords. The military is always testing everything. The bulk of the fighting in OIF and OEF hasn't been under the scope of the Geneva Convention OR the Hague accords. We have gone the whole war without changing ammo.

I don't trust one source either, even if they CAN spell Ayoob correctly.

My Kimber has been just as reliable as my Glock. Maybe not all 1911s are dead reliable, but mine is.
 
"WHO IS HILTON YAM?"

I rest my case. The rest of your comments have no bearing on the topic at hand, and or, are simply based on your opinion, which you support with essentially nothing. I'm glad the Berreta works well for you. If I had to have a DAO gun, or was outfitting a dept, I would opt for HK, Sig, Glock, and others, and Berreta would be very close to my last choice, as it's a POS. That's my opinion. :neener:
 
Um, yeah. We're not getting any HP ammo until the U.S. completely drops all pretense of following the Hague accords.
Currently the Hague accords benefit the US. The US has the best most capable conventionaly force in the world.

You cannot plan permanent military policy around always fighting third world rebels.
There will be other conventional forces that the US must face in the future.

Against smaller less equiped conventional forces the capability of less sophisticated forces can be augmented with more capable small arms technology. Exploding small arms rounds using high explosive payloads would reduce some of the benefits a much more expensive conventional force has in things like body armor etc
While giving minimal benefits to the conventional force that already has size and monetary advantage (the US.)

Consider that the Hague accords also sought to prevent bombs from being dropped from balloons. This was before the use of airplanes, but anyone could see the spirit of the "law" would be the same for jets and attack choppers.
Yet the best conventional forces in the world have a sizeable advantage with air support. Disallowing aircraft strikes would significantly harm the ability to engage in warfare.
While allowing everyone to use aircraft still greatly benefits those who can afford aircraft, aircraft AA and countermeasures technology and are the more advanced conventional force. The US can sieze the sky over most battlefields, so who cares if others have less sophisticated aircraft.


My point is that the US conventional forces benefit greatly from the fact that third world nations are not producing very capable ammunition using the latest technology because they adhere to those rules. Which means both irregular fighters as well as thier conventional forces also end up with that same ammunition.
The use of poison and explosive small arms rounds would significantly increase the lethality of those potential enemy nations and insurgents without increasing the effectiveness of US military forces anywhere near as much.

So you may think you are only talking about hollowpoint ammunition but you are not. The same exact rules are why poison ammunition and various designs of explosive ammunition (that could make most body armor near worthless) are not used.

Those rules benefit US and NATO personel more than the absence of them would.
Arguably it restricts capabilities everyone has, without restricting the technology that gives the US superiority (aircraft, artillery etc.)
Why would the US stop following a law that severely limits enemy forces around the world, and only mildly impacts US forces?
 
Last edited:
There are so many better platforms than the 92. Someone got a favor or two...that is how that stuff usually works. Like the guys in the shuttle say "we are sitting on top of something built by the lowest bidders. The name of the game in bidding govt contracts is to get the contract...everything else is secondary to that.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top