Tom Gresham: NG trooper said, "Turn [supplies] around or I will shoot and kill you"

[Jeff]

It seems clear to me that you have no idea what you are talking about. You have no idea what it takes o organize the logistics for hundreds or thousands of prople, their movement, their medical care... not just the victims but the rescuers and caregivers as well... they need food and water as well.

Who said anything about civilians organizing "the logistics for hundreds or thousands of people...?" They were talking about ordinary civilians doing ordinary things, and helping others on a more ordinary scale.

I say if anyone is willing to risk their health-- their very lives-- in that septic and swollen hell-hole, then let them help. Why would more civilian rescuers need to be rescued themselves, than accomplish actual rescues? The overall net result would be beneficial, not detrimental.

The gov't cheerleaders' math doesn't add up.

 

[AZRickD]

Why would more civilian rescuers need to be rescued themselves, than accomplish actual rescues?

Well, they made a statement without bothering to back it up. It is not unlike Sarah Brady saying that "guns would only make that situation worse." They actually said that after the 9/11 hijackings.

Government worshipers often don't think things through, just like the bureaucrats whom they worship.

See? That thar's circular thinkin'.

Rick

 

[Glenn Kelley]

Organization

Clearly organization is necessary but it can be overdone.The evacuation of Dunkirk is a good example of organization of volunteers.If all those volunteers were directed to a specifiic point,equipment checked and dispatched things would be further ahead.

 

[DRZinn]

I know that very often what was reported as being said is not "quite" what was really said.

That's why I threw in the "it's possible."

 

[AZRickD]

If all those volunteers were directed to a specifiic point,equipment checked and dispatched things would be further ahead.

Indeedy. Instead of the the NG trooper threatening to KILL the guys with the boats and supplies, he should have been instructed to radio in to organize the effort. Try this:

Pvt Pimples: "Sarge, just like we trained for, there's three guys here with three boatloads full of supplies -- still on trailers. Do you want them to launch here or at First and Main streets, over."

Sgt Gonadotropin: "Negative, Private Pimples. Too much traffic in your sector. There are three civilian airboats and that actor-dude that doinked Madonna heading your way that will be offloading evacuees. Your new boats need to get out of the way ASAP. Tell them they are needed at sectors Charlie, Kilo and, hold on a sec... take the third on over to Sierra. They'll receive further directions there. And Private Pimples, be sure and thank them for their service, ya hear? Out."

See? Was that so hard?

Rick

 

[spartacus2002]

OK, so maybe I'm a little harsh on the new guy, but a guy with 5 posts calling a longterm THR member a troll is some first class chutzpah.

Organization has a place and a purpose, but it can get in the way more than it can help. I understand the place of rules and order, as I did 12 years in the Army, but it taught me just as much about how red tape can get in the way.

 

[GAMALOT]

If I am not mistaking, Marshall Law was never called. The order was "SHOOT to kill" LOOTERS.
Like someone else said, If you want to help and have a boat, hook up with an authorized organization.
I for one suspect many would go there with the story of helping and the story is really "HELPING THEMSELVES TO WHAT EVER THEY CAN FIND".
Sad but true, human nature, as of late, seems to always get around to "WHATS IN IT FOR ME".
You can be sure when a sack of 100 dollar bills falls off the Brinks truck and is blowing all over the highway, those who stop to pick it up are not concerned with the litter on the road.
Gary

 

[FPrice]

AZRickD...

See? Was that so hard?

When you are sitting in your nice, safe, comfortable house, and the worst possible result of your decision is that someone else on THR may burst your bubble and say something which might offend you, it's not so hard at all.

But when you are on-scene, and it's not so nice nor safe nor comfortable, and you are dealing with real people, real problems, and real consequences to your decisions, when everyone from high government officials, to local leaders, to celebrities looking to extend their 15 minutes of fame, to the very people you are trying to save are all telling you what should be done and how it should have been done yesterday.

Well, it's just a teeny bit harder then.

But then, some people will never quite understand that.

 

[publius]

After hurricane Andrew, non-residents were not supposed to be in my old South Dade neighborhood for the first few days.

My brother ignored that rule, and came down. He was stopped by a guardsman, who saw that he had a station wagon loaded with ice, gas, and chainsaws, and waved him on without checking ID.

Every day that week, my buddy Gene, who was working on a boat at the Jockey Club in Fort Lauderdale, would raid their massive ice machine and bring us a huge cooler full of ice, allowing us to keep our own perishables cold and give ice to neighbors.

I was sure glad to see those lawbreakers. The only representatives from the government I saw in those first days were aboard helicopters, and were not as much help as the unorganized help militia.

 

[AZRickD]

Again, another person who says an American can't criticize his government becuase the citizen isn't part of the government (an LEO, NG, Legislator, etc). Nonsense. I can and I will criticize them when they exclude citizens from lending hands-on assistance. This is America, not France.

When you are sitting in your nice, safe, comfortable house, and the worst possible result of your decision is that someone else on THR may burst your bubble and say something which might offend you, it's not so hard at all.

But when you are on-scene...

The FEMA Overlords were in nice, safe comfortable offices and the results of *their* decisions caused a lot of extra pain and suffering.

Why did they not have a plan in New Orleans to work with citizen volunteers when citizen volunteers were working out well in Mississippi and Alabama?

I for one suspect many would go there with the story of helping and the story is really "HELPING THEMSELVES TO WHAT EVER THEY CAN FIND".

Like the New Orleans Police (not the 1/3rd who are AWOL).

Like someone else said, If you want to help and have a boat, hook up with an authorized organization.

Yes, that would be part of a good plan. Too bad the .gov folks in N.O. didn't plan for that citizen activity and actively resisted it. FEMA turns away Walmart trucks full of water. FEMA cuts communication lines of the county and state and the Sheriff has to post armed guards so FEMA can't cut them again. Just how much Faith in government does one have to have to continue with that line of thought?

Looks like we've talked this one through.

Rick

 

[Art Eatman]

"FEMA turns away Walmart trucks full of water."

FEMA? Or, maybe, a local person? A cop? A National Guard guy?

This is my problem with all the finger-pointing that's going on. Somebody, somewhere, says to someone, "Don't let unauthorized people in." The someone, unable to pour pee out of a boot without a hole in the toe and directions on the heel, thinks "authorized" means cops or other Guard guys or damfino.

And we have some stupid decision way down the pecking order that's blamed on people 50, 100 or 1,000 miles away.

Consider: Apparently, the Wal-Mart trucks which were headed toward the Superdome had been coordinated with FEMA, since Brown went on TV saying they'd arrived and food/water was being served. We know the trucks were turned around. So: Who, way down the line, refused entry to those trucks? Not "FEMA".

So far as I can tell, and I've watched a helluva lot of the news coverage, there are only two people in command positions who've totally blown it: The mayor of NO and the governor of LA. I'm not at all saying everybody else has been perfect, or that mistakes have not been made at high levels, but those two are the only total losers in this deal.

Art

 

[Hawk]

In 1992 I was living and working in North Miami. By mid-morning we had about a dozen out of about 130 employees gathered around a generator wondering what we should do with an abundance of warehouse space and a small fleet of delivery trucks. We would be without power and water for around 2 weeks but Andrew had done its worse to the south of us. At that point a goodly number of the routes south were impassable.

I got to see a major private relief agency at its Keystone cops worst and (eventually) FEMA at its 'take charge' best. A local brewery started bottling water in beer cans and we're running due south. Lots of well-meaning people tripping over their good intentions were the order of the day.

Friend Publius was in the belly of the beast and observes the opposite.

The plural of anecdote is not data. The Keystone cops in my neighborhood were heroes a half mile away (I would learn a year later). The clear-eyed lantern jawed gubmint agents helping with water trucks headed south were 3 days behind the insurance adjusters in Coral Gables.

At the risk of sounding like a kumbaya type, all conditions exist in a major disaster. It's the nature of the beast. Absolutes concerning private relief and government agencies are all equally true and false depending on which part of the elephant your particular blind man is groping. I don’t tend to view a network newsie as anything other than yet another blind man, albeit with good hair.

Just get a bunch of Dade residents shooting the breeze in '93 and you'll get every view under the sun. Heck, we don’t even need an Andrew Alumni meeting for that; this thread'll do.

My humble opinion is that the unofficial private samaritan relief is needed the most in the first 72 hours when there is no real organization or "official sanction" to be had; once the big clumsy relief machine gets its feet under itself, I'm not so certain.

The position that, in New Orleans, the big clumsy machine never did get its feet under itself, or was purposely acting at cross purposes to its mandate will come out in post mortem. Personally, I'm betting on the usual amount of bureaucratic missed communications but no real malfeasance. Methinks Art nailed it. Tell 5000 people to dig holes and a couple will be backfilling their hearts out, certain that's what they were told. That's life. Don’t see a reason to snipe at one another in the interim.

Lastly, New Orleans isn’t Miami. Too bad whatever learning might be had will be buried under the blamestorming I see brewing.

 

[FPrice]

Hawk...

You make WAY too much sense to be participating in this finger-pointing thread.

Seriously though, I think you have put your finger on the real situation. There is good and bad in all relief efforst. Maybe sometimes by the same people in the same day. But at least they are trying.

Thanks.

 

[cropcirclewalker]

If I can't point my finger on the internet, then why even bother?

Seriously....

1) There is no constitutional authority for fed.gov to be in the natural disaster relief business.

2) NG is fine if they got called up by the State (LA)

3) The initial responders should have been the 1) people, 2) City, 3) State.

4) Some up above claim that there was "the usual amount of bureaucratic missed communications but no real malfeasance." What?

I betcha there will be at least twice as many heads roll over this fiasco than rolled because of 9-11.

How many was that again?

 

[Derek Zeanah]

Consider: Apparently, the Wal-Mart trucks which were headed toward the Superdome had been coordinated with FEMA, since Brown went on TV saying they'd arrived and food/water was being served. We know the trucks were turned around. So: Who, way down the line, refused entry to those trucks? Not "FEMA".

It could probably be better stated like this: the bureaucratic structure created for disaster relief failed in a number of ways that made the situation worse, or at least made the situation less "better" than it would have been if they had acted properly. Who cares if it was a national guard guy who sent the trucks back, or the deputy director of FEMA? Some folks were in charge of the whole op, a screw-up happened, and people want to point fingers at someone.

It's harder to point fingers at some private doing as he was told (likely "if they aren't from one of these governmental organizations, they do not get through. Do you understand?") than it is to point fingers at the guy who gave the order, or the guy who gave the frago that didn't think it important to emphasize that the entire purpose of the operation was to provide relief, and didn't give his underlings enough power to be able to make decisions on the spot that might take into account situations that the leadership didn't account for. Like metric tons of supplies arriving before anyone on-site had been advised they were coming.

That's the problem here: those that assert that the mindless machinery of government must be the only thing running relief efforts because otherwise well-meaning efforts will get in the way are putting way too much faith in the ability of big clunky bureaucracies to get the job done.

I'd think any military experience would show someone how leadership can fail. Regularly. Especially when they don't trust the guys on the ground to make decisions that might effect the outcome of the mission. Yeah, privates can be stupid. Yeah, opportunistic looters might show up. But even the stupidest private ought to be able to tell the difference between a bunch of looters and a friggin relief convoy from the local WalMart distribution center. At the very least, he could call for guidance from superiors. Unless those superiors make it clear that guidance won't be provided, and these orders are to be adhered to regardless of the situation...

 

[publius]

My humble opinion is that the unofficial private samaritan relief is needed the most in the first 72 hours when there is no real organization or "official sanction" to be had;

I tend to agree, especially before any real communications can be established.

It's harder to point fingers at some private doing as he was told (likely "if they aren't from one of these governmental organizations, they do not get through. Do you understand?")

An unbelievable order, if it was given. Of course, it's hard to believe morons were shooting at relief workers. I wouldn't want to be the private who disobeyed orders and let the Wal Mart drivers get murdered, their trucks looted by a mob, which was a possible outcome, it seems.

 

[RealGun]

3) The initial responders should have been the 1) people, 2) City, 3) State.

The initial response should have been citizens understanding what "mandatory evacuation" meant, assuming they received the message. That was clarified earlier today when the mayor implemented forceable removal. The City was trying to communicate that it was not taking responsibility or planning heroics for those who stayed behind. I do not mean to defend a failure to assist those who needed help in leaving the city. I am sure we will hear a lot more about that issue.

 

[iiibdsiil]

Hey guys! I have a great idea! Let's send the 3 families that Sean Penn saved back to where they were. We'll tell them that because he was not part of the "team" that they were not supposed to be rescued, and he was acting as a renegade in doing this. We'll kindly explain to them that the Fed.gov will be there to help them, sooner or later. And that everything will be fine, and we are sorry for the inconvience, ya know, saving their lives and all.

Let's make a list, people that feel that only the gov should save them in the event of a crisis like this. We'll all have a copy of that list, and when we are in your area saving ya, we will go "Oh, Jim over there said that we shouldn't be here, so since he isn't appreciative we will go over to his neighbor and save him, while Jim and his family slowly die." That sounds like a plan to me. I would rather save someone that wants it, and you can wait all you want for the gov to come and get ya. At least it would be organized.

I would be rather pissed if I was in this situation, and they were turning away Sean Penns. One of those 3 families could have been me or mine. And I would be damn glad that he made it through. Let's give him flack over forgetting the drain plug, and about him saving lives.

Oh, so the elderly and sick that are on the other side of town are more important? Try telling that to any one of the families on this side. We are all supposed to be equal. And quite frankly I would rather save people that will still be living a year from now, than save people that are already sick. But, either way, I wouldn't discriminate in a situation like this.

 

[Art Eatman]

I concur with Derek's "re-write".

Having been in the Army, and having worked in state government, I know that a major problem within any bureaucracy (Heck, within General Motors Corpporation, for that matter) is that there are those for whom any regulation is cast in concrete, not a general item of advice.

There is just something about bureaucracies which lures the authoritative sort. When you get stuck with those who love process over goal, you have trouble in getting things done in any rational manner...

Art

 

[Sergeant Bob]

Anyone remember that thread about the fella who was trapped in the rushing water at the bottom of a dam? Then some guy dove in (OMG! Against the orders of the "Authorities") and save the man. Ended up getting a ticket for not "following orders"
How many here were decrying that boondoggle? Is this any different (only in scale)?

Right after the flood started their was a private citizen who rescued something like 50 people, all without any "government authorization"!

Better throw that man in jail!

Some people are so wrapped up in rules and regulations that they will stand around and argue about who is "authorized", while people are dieing right in front of them.
It's people like that who caused the entire clustertruck in the first place! :banghead:

 

[Libertyteeth]

The Red Cross and the Southern Baptist relief agency were denied entry, not just helpful citizens.

It seems FEMA, etc., did not want relief agencies going in, because that would just enable people who wanted to stay, to be able to do so. This would conflict with their desire to turn NOLA into a ghost town.

I believe it would be good if FEMA were simply abolished. Let locally organized militias and relief agencies and local police supplement unorganized relief efforts once they get their act together. FEMA is, as others have pointed out, simply unconstitutional, and is dangerous to our liberties to boot. Most of their budget is off the books and has nothing to do with rescue and relief efforts.

 

[RealGun]

The Red Cross and the Southern Baptist relief agency were denied entry, not just helpful citizens.

It seems FEMA, etc., did not want relief agencies going in, because that would just enable people who wanted to stay, to be able to do so. This would conflict with their desire to turn NOLA into a ghost town.

I believe it would be good if FEMA were simply abolished. Let locally organized militias and relief agencies and local police supplement unorganized relief efforts once they get their act together. FEMA is, as others have pointed out, simply unconstitutional, and is dangerous to our liberties to boot. Most of their budget is off the books and has nothing to do with rescue and relief efforts.

Some pretty big indictments there. Got any sources?

 

[AZRickD]

The President of the Red Cross was interviewed by Bill O'Reilly saying that Red Cross was ready to enter the city early on but claimed that the New Orleans Office of Homeland Security refused them entry.

No word whether they were threatened with summary execution.

Rick

 

[GigaBuist]

Some pretty big indictments there. Got any sources?

I've been hearing much of the same as of late, and that line of thinking is really starting to make sense to me. I don't want to pollute the thread with what many would consider nonsense, but if you've got an open mind I'd be happy to take the issue up via PM or e-mail.

That aside... would any of 'old timers' care to chime in with how things used to work? I mean before FEMA existed, which I believe was created by Carter. Did the NG just come in? Was it all private organizations? Was the life loss higher?

I keep hearing "worst disaster in a century" and such. Our transportation is better than ever before. Our communications technolgy is insane compared to "back in the day." Is the natural devistation so far above anything that we've ever seen before to make this actually the worst ever? Then again, maybe its just all media hype.

Too often we get stuck looking at right now without asking ourselves how we got here, or what we did in the times past. Are we making progress? If so, how? If not, why not?

 

[AZRickD]

I don't want to pollute the thread

Heck, it's my thread...it's pretty much run its course.

Go ahead and post away.

Rick