Took my CCW class today...these people scare me

[Sheslinger]

I guess we lucked out...

We had 15 people in our class and were split into two groups. Eight of us took our lanes and the rest were standing behind watching. We rolled our targets to whatever the first mark is - 3 yards? The instructor told us to load six rounds, leave the guns in single action mode and stop. Then he said to take one shot whenever we were ready (take our time) and stop. Then another. We did the first six one by one, I guess he wanted to make sure we did not have any people who would portray unsafe gun handling. There were two instructors actually walking behind us and tutoring those who did not do so well. Then he said to load six more and stop. Then shoot all six at our own pace. Then roll the targets to 7 yards and load six and stop, then take all six shots at our own pace. And so forth. No one did anything stupid, a couple of people did not shoot great, but we really only felt uncomfortable around one guy who kept asking in class when he could shoot someone. "Well, if I see him breaking into my car, can I shoot him?" "What if he turns around, can I shoot him then?" "What if after he is dead, I arrange him on the ground so that it looks like he was coming at me?" Then he turns to the rest of the class and goes, "Come on, ya'll know you want to shoot someone, right?"

Some scary people out there.
Sheslinger

 

[Min]

Man, the class was so easy...you just had to be there and be awake. Everyone passed, but I wonder if some should have.

Shooting was done at 3 yds, 7 yds, and 15 yds - 50 rounds total from each person. I brought my Kahr PM9 and was able to put 47 rounds in a basketball-sized circle in COM of silhouette. (nothing to brag about). Others could only put 1/2 their rounds inside the circle. The instructor said, you know those holes in the white space of the paper above the shoulder - I call em "laywer holes"!

Most had full-sized 1911's...some were pretty tricked out.

About that Smith and Wesson semi-auto, I used to look down on them, but some models are nice - the 3913 and some others. Lady who had one had an all-stainless 9mm that was actually pretty (finish-wise). I wonder if it was a custom finish. Anyway, but I don't like frame-mounted safeties...

I keep thinking these people will kill themselves or innocent bystanders. (?)

*****
The one New Lic woman (young) CONFESSED that she had an incident one night. She was driving at 3 am on the freeway, when some other car was following her and was harrassing her. So, she rolls down her passenger window, and starts shooting her .380 semi-auto at the other car. The instructor (a sheriff's constable) was dumbstruck. He asked her - "Where do you think those bullets went?" The whole class just about gasped. What's funny was the young woman was very calm about it - and made it sound like the most natural thing in the world.

I don't mean to imply women are incompentent with guns, just these two were notable.

 

[Lone_Gunman]

Training requirements for a ccw permit are bad for the same reason that literacy tests for voting is bad.

They can be used subjectively by bureaucrats to prevent people from exercising their rights.

Training is a personal responsibility, but certainly should not be mandated by the government.

Where in the Second Amendment could you justify mandatory training?

 

[Sharpie1]

For me, one of the biggest challenges of conducting any firearms training class is the guy in there who "knows it all"...

Example:

Quote - "Oh, I've been shooting guns since I was five. I really don't need to learn anything, I'm just going to go through the motions so I can get my permit."

At the beginning of each class, I stress to the students that it is "Knowledge, Skills and Attitude" (as the NRA puts it) that is developed in the course they're taking. And, I tell them that they may not pass the course if they exhibit the improper attitude, even if they score perfectly on their tests.

A bad attitude with respect to firearms is bad enough when you're out and about in public - but it has absolutely NO place in a firearms training class - because it gives other students the wrong impression. It also undermines the safety of the course - if the student perhaps thought he knew enough about guns to not have to obey certain safety procedures.

--tadyson

 

[LiquidTension]

My CWP class wasn't bad. I was one of only 2 people to get a perfect score (test and shooting), and there were lots of bad shots, but nobody did anything really stupid or acted up in any way. Well, I did make a comment about the Thunderwear holster breaking the "don't point at anything you're not willing to destroy" rule, but it was intended to be funny and was taken as such. Pretty uneventful in my case.

 

[Wildalaska]

Oh, so you mean they let people have guns just like specified in that old dusty Constitution thing I read about in elementary school???

Ooops Im sorry I forgot the Constituion has been interpreted to call laws requiring safety courses a violation of the second amendment. I must of missed it when you and the other SCOTUS judges did that....

WildironynotsarcasmAlaska

 

[Wildalaska]

They can be used subjectively by bureaucrats to prevent people from exercising their rights.

There is no right to carry a weapon "concealed", nor even under the most liberal reading of the second amendment, will there ever be.

WilddontmixapplesandorangesAlaska

 

[El Tejon]

No, wild, the Second Amendment has nothing to do with carrying arms to defend oneself. The Second Amendment is about fighting the government.

Self-defense is the province of the Ninth Amendment. It matters not how one wishes to, in the words of I say, I say, Chief Justice "it's not about slavery, y'all" Taney, "carry arms wherever one goes", openly or concealed. Why would ever matter in what manner I wish to bear arms?


The concern over concealment traces its roots over controlling violence in the South. Later these same Southern governments expressed these concerns in the Son of Ham laws that they used to control Blacks.

Wild, the Supreme Court has held that testing and registration is a violation of the First Amendment. How can it not be a violation of the Second Amendment?

 

[Erik]

I didn't mind having to provide proof of minimal training to the authorities along with the application for my permit.

I don't mind that others have to do the same.

---

The practical implications of training re the First Amendment vs the Second Amendment would be an interesting debate indeed. I imagine most would not make the parallel that we here might prefer, but it would be interesting none the less.

 

[Lone_Gunman]

Wild,

I see your point.

But do we really want to go down the slippery slope of having a bureaucrat decide who can, and who can't, carry a gun?

I mean, today, we might pass a law saying you must pass a safety course.

But tomorrow some other law maker may decide you also need to pass a psychological test to make sure you are unlikely to commit a crime.

Then someone else comes along and decides you need to pass a "patriotism" test to make sure you arent a terrorist.

My point is, where will it end?

The government will be about as successful regulating gun safety as it is enforcing other laws based on morality.

Gun safety is a personal responsibility and should not be a matter of government jurisdiction.

 

[El Tejon]

Lone, it will end when our masters in government have us in camps.

 

[J Miller]

I didn't mind having to provide proof of minimal training to the authorities along with the application for my permit.

I do mind! I mind that I have to ask the government permission to exersize my rights. I mind that I have to pay the government for permission to have a "permit" to exercize my rights.
I mind.

Before moving to the communist state of IL I lived in AZ. (Long story, don't ask.)
Arizona is an open cary state. So when the ccw laws went into effect I and others asked: Why the he!! should we pay money to get a permission slip (permit) to do what we can already do?
Oh, carrying a concealed gun is different from carrying an exposed gun.......how?

There is no difference. Except in the minds of sheeple. Many gun owners are tickled to be allowed to carry at all. They gladly register themselfs with the State and Federal govt just to do what the constitution says they can already do. They are so concerned about someone seeing that they are carrying a gun that it scares them.

What a bunch of crap.

When I get out of IL, and back to an open carry state, I doubt seriously that I will ask permission of some slimy buerocrat (sp) to exercise my rights.

My apologies to everyone, I couldn't resist ranting on this one.

 

[spacemanspiff]

my CCW class was also filled with those who could barely qualify. some of them were lifelong shooters. i've told this story before, but it could use a retelling.
guy in the lane to my right says the 1911 he is using (that was his fathers and had a lifetime of use) was old, getting worn out, and was very inaccurate. what eh wanted was to get a tricked out racegun like one of his buddies, he shot well with that. but with his father 1911 he was all over the silhouette. up, down, sideways, you name it. at 7 yards. so the instructor takes it to give it a looksee, calls the range hot, and shoots offhand 6 rounds. into one hole smaller than a quarter.
thats the moment you should drop to a prone position and repeat the phrase "i'm not worthy!"

the other shooters that couldnt keep it on the paper were using revolvers. once they were given a semiauto to try, they could get their shots on paper.

yesterday at the range, this guy was showing a woman how to shoot. looked like she kind of knew what she was doign, but she was using a weird weaver stance with her elbows at a 45 degree angle and her wrists were doing another 45 degree angle to get the sights of the glock on target. at 5 yards her rounds kept hitting the ground 5 feet in front of the target.
by the time i finally thought of a tactful way to give some advice they were packing up to leave.
i wasnt doing too much better myself though.

 

[jsalcedo]

Everyone in my CHL class were decent shooters.

Except for one union lawyer lady who complained and whined the whole time and wanted to know if all the rules still applied to her because she was handicapped (300lbs overweight).

A San Antonio police officer gave the class and the gun handling
was near perfect.

It cost me $240 to get my CHL which I think is too high.

All states should have Alaska/Vermont carry I am so frigging sick and tired of having to jump through hoops to get licensed for living my life.

All these laws and rules trying to control what I might do.

Like a silly CHL class is going to keep someone from misusing a gun. Like a drivers training and licensing keeps people from running over homeless people, drunk driving, running red lights etc..

If people were left to their own devices they would become self reliant and self regulating like they were 75 years ago.

 

[Cosmoline]

Most Alaskans

I've met, even the leftists, know the basics of firearm safety. The tourists are a different matter

 

[brookstexas]

CCW Training Vs. Rights

If you have to ASK PERMISSION it's not a right, we have fallen victim to the mindset of the antis.
Do you have to ASK PERMISSION to go and buy a book or give your opinion in public (Before Ashcroft for the sake of argument)?
I'm sure Mein Kampf caused more deaths that Smith & Wesson anyway.
Before someone throws out the tired cliche about yelling fire in a movie theater, I do have the right to do so. I also have the consequence of my actions to deal with like anyone exercising ANY right we have.
BT

 

[Bob41081]

Min,
Where did you go for your class. I'm up rof renewal next year. I'm in SW Houston.

Bob

 

[Mannlicher]

Almost all of us were nervous when handling a gun for the first time. Laughing at others who experience what we have ourselves is boorish. I am (almost) astounded at the level of pomposity here.

Those folks you are laughing at, have the same motivation as you do for having a means of protection. Of course, not all of new CCW applicants show up with YOUR years of gun handling, and expert shooting skills, honed during brutal (simulated) combat down at the gun shop.

Lighten up.

 

[12-34hom]

Scared, hell yes.

This comes as no suprise to me, at all.

Reminds me of about 90% of people who operate some type of motor vehicles. If they get into a tight situation, THEY HAVE NO CLUE on what they need to do to get out of it with out killing themselfs or someone else.

This experiance come from working as an LEO for 7 years & Tractor Trailer driver. I thought i'd seen some stuiped folks while working traffic details. That is, until i got a view from the wheel of a truck.

Same principal applies to a high % those legally armed. They go to these classes, pass and rarely follow up with any other kind of training, let alone practice.

I proposed having ANYONE who is issued an CCW license should have to qualify AT LEAST twice a year, for whatever duration thier license is issued for.

I have to do this as a peace officer, and i see at least two officers in my county i work in have a very hard time doing so.

12-34hom.

 

[Min]

Where did you go for your class. I'm up rof renewal next year. I'm in SW Houston.

Carter's Country up in Spring. I'd recommend it - the range is nice, and is right next to the classroom. Very convenient. Cost was $99 plus tax.

 

[OF]

I think every law abiding citizen has the right to own and carry a gun but with this right comes a big responsibility.

Yeah, the responsibility not to shoot anyone who doesn't deserve it. I love the "you have a right to own a gun, as long as you can pass this test I made up for you."

Beginners scary? Sure they are. So what. If they're such a menace, why isn't the blood flowing in the streets? Why aren't there accidental shootings every week on your block? And even if there were, you still don't have to the power to impose your will on people who have done nothing wrong because you think they might have an accident someday. Let me rephrase that, you shouldn't have that power, but due to the fact that some people think the Constitution means whatever the SCOTUS says it means this year, the gov't does have that power.

How is it again? You have the right to own a gun, with whatever restrictions the SCOTUS (or the democratic majority, or congress, or the town hall or whatever) says you should have...until they change their mind. Then, like magic, your innate, inalienable natural human rights become just what they tell you they are that week - all rights subject to revokation or alteration as educational standards change, of course.

Because something unnerves you is not cause to seek to remove someones rights. Old women have a right to defend themselves whether they can pass a class or not. You do not have a right to be free of fear from them having an accident.

I'm with JMiller: I do mind. I mind very much. And the fact that some people do not mind is cause for alarm.

The more knowledgable shooters, the better off we all are.

Yep. And the most important knowledge for a shooter to have is what it means to be free. To me, gun safety comes 2nd (no pun intended). Freedom comes first. Make sure those shooters know what that hunk of iron in their hands represents. The difference between a free man and a slave.

That lesson is far more important than any gun safety class can ever hope to be.

- Gabe

 

[Min]

Well, I didn't mean for this to become a gun-control thread. I am, of course, against any type of gun control. Heck, I would love it if Texas passed a law that allows people to carry without a permit (like Alaska).

But, still, if these people have decided to depend for a gun for self-protection, they should be responsible (of their own recognizance mind you) to train themselves, seek training, and become proficient with their firearm.

I'm afraid, however, that many people think guns in real life are like in movies (where most of them see guns in action). Good guys don't miss. Bad guys do. And magazines hold tons of rounds magically.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

You know, you all should be very scared by the people who are getting licenses to carry guns. I have seen some of the same crud y'all have seen, such as the guy that unloaded his carry ammo that he loaded in his gun four years prior when he originally qualified for his CHL. He had not shot his gun in four years and wasn't going to waste his carry ammo to requalify.

With all that in mind, a lot of people never carry after they get their CHLs or do so very rarely. Some have their CHLs people they carry only very rarely, something they have done their entire lives anyway and now they can do so without worry of arrest for unlawful carry.

I would much rather all CHL folks be regulars at the local range, putting a couple of hundred rounds a month down range, say 50 a week, just to stay on top of things. Unfortunately, they don't do it. These folks get and maintain their CHLs as a matter of priveledge and option.

In the grand scheme, you really have extremely little to worry about in regard to potential unsafe gun handling by fellow CHL holders. Your real concern should be with the unlicensed gun carriers coming into your place of work, place you are eating, mall, or even home and trying to do you harm or harm to folks simply in your proximity and end up shooting you by accident because they don't have the first real understanding of gun handling, muzzle discipline, or the like. Comparatively speaking, CHL folks are few in number compared to the bad guys.

 

[DigMe]

Carter's Country up in Spring. I'd recommend it - the range is nice, and is right next to the classroom. Very convenient. Cost was $99 plus tax.

I like Carter's Country, but sheesh...that's an EXPENSIVE CHL class! Over in Central Texas in Gatesville you can get it for 60 bucks and that does include range time, fingerprints and pictures. Most other places I've heard of are about 75 bucks.

brad cook

 

[Min]

Houston is more expensive because the interest and the demand is there.

$100 is the going rate in this area. Harris county has more CCW per capita than any other county in TX I believe...