La Pistoletta
Member
I might be getting into something I shouldn't, H088, but some people can't become Americans simply by being born. They have to struggle for it. Would you somehow deem that less deserving of respect?
Why You Should Take An Immigrant Shooting: Ten Reasons
- Thread starter Hoplophile
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xsquidgator
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- Jan 14, 2007
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- 835
Oh, yes. Same thing with my immigrant friend. To steal a phrase someone else used, the first time he used an evil black rifle to blow up a milk jug full of water, well, his smile was so big I'm surprised the top of his head didn't just fall off.
Taking an Immigrant to the range is helping them learn what it means to be a good citizen IMO. Frankly, I'd rather have our immigrants feeling a keen sense of ownership to this country, its traditions and the rights which must be defended.
They will pass it down to their kids, and they will vote on it when they get citizenship.
its a good investment for the future of gun rights.
They will pass it down to their kids, and they will vote on it when they get citizenship.
its a good investment for the future of gun rights.
American is a state of mind, an acceptance of a set of social ideals encompassing self-reliance, self-advancement, generosity, openmindedness, logic, and reason.
To become American, metaphysically, is to accept these values. Firearms are merely a manifestation of these values reaching fruition.
To become American, metaphysically, is to accept these values. Firearms are merely a manifestation of these values reaching fruition.
cambeul41
Member
La Pistoletta (post 51) says,
Correct. I often say, "Some of us are Americans by dumb luck. Others have to learn what America is, compare it to whatever else the world has to offer, make a decision, and jump through hoops." Which kind of American would you expect to be more appreciative of what they have? Which would you expect to be more willing to do what it takes to keep it the kind of country we want it to be?
On the other hand, La Pistoletta, you ask what is wrong with illegal aliens. I am confused. Are you asking what is wrong with breaking the law?
As individuals, I am sure that many could become be great Americans. I wish we could trade them for welfare chiselers and non-appreciative "dumb luck" Americans. Other illegal aliens are part of the reason I carry.
Since we cannot magically divine which is which -- and which just want to make a few bucks then go home -- I think that we can only enforce the law and sort them as best we can as they apply for entry through legal channels. Across-the-board amnesty will solve nothing in the long run; it will only encourage more illegals to start their American adventure with breaking the law.
Correct. I often say, "Some of us are Americans by dumb luck. Others have to learn what America is, compare it to whatever else the world has to offer, make a decision, and jump through hoops." Which kind of American would you expect to be more appreciative of what they have? Which would you expect to be more willing to do what it takes to keep it the kind of country we want it to be?
On the other hand, La Pistoletta, you ask what is wrong with illegal aliens. I am confused. Are you asking what is wrong with breaking the law?
As individuals, I am sure that many could become be great Americans. I wish we could trade them for welfare chiselers and non-appreciative "dumb luck" Americans. Other illegal aliens are part of the reason I carry.
Since we cannot magically divine which is which -- and which just want to make a few bucks then go home -- I think that we can only enforce the law and sort them as best we can as they apply for entry through legal channels. Across-the-board amnesty will solve nothing in the long run; it will only encourage more illegals to start their American adventure with breaking the law.
La Pistoletta
Member
cambeul41 said:
The most common argument I see against illegal immigration is that many of them leech welfare money from working citizens. But that's a problem with welfare as such, not immigrants.
To not stray too far off-topic, I think teaching people to be responsible firearm owners is a good thing. You can't just order someone to vote for and support individual rights and the constitution, but you can show them what it means, and if their judgement is sound enough, they can choose to do the right thing.
I was stationed in the Philippines at Clark Air Base. The Philippines does not let their population own fire arms.They can only own pellet guns.
I took a few of my Filipino friends that worked on base with me to the Skeet range on base. They had never fired any firearms.They had the time of their lives. They didn't hit very many birds but they loved shooting shotguns. We enjoy rights that some of the world can only dream of.
I took a few of my Filipino friends that worked on base with me to the Skeet range on base. They had never fired any firearms.They had the time of their lives. They didn't hit very many birds but they loved shooting shotguns. We enjoy rights that some of the world can only dream of.
Its an invasion of a different culture, one which will seek to change American laws to suit its own interests and firearms ownership isn't on the list of things they want to keep.
You see how bad Mexico is? Well thats what America will turn into if this continues.
Cougfan2
Member
Mods, this has gotten out of hand. Please end it.
La Pistoletta
Member
No need to take such drastic measures, Cougfan. It's just a little bump, not a complete derailing. Slamming the lock on anything that temporarily strays a little off path is only going to stifle discussion that could very well turn out to be constructive. 
True, I think watching the joy expressed by those new shooters you mention can help remind people of that fact.
By the way, it seems so far the immigrants you've taken to the range have been respectful of firearm safety and rules?
Wang said:
True, I think watching the joy expressed by those new shooters you mention can help remind people of that fact.
By the way, it seems so far the immigrants you've taken to the range have been respectful of firearm safety and rules?
Excuse me H088, but America as you know it BEGAN as an invasion of a different culture.
Your particular brand of ignorance is particulalry upsetting, and makes the rest of the shooting community look like a bunch of racist hicks.
Your particular brand of ignorance is particulalry upsetting, and makes the rest of the shooting community look like a bunch of racist hicks.
Cougfan2
Member
No need to take such drastic measures, Cougfan. It's just a little bump, not a complete derailing. Slamming the lock on anything that temporarily strays a little off path is only going to stifle discussion that could very well turn out to be constructive.
I suppose you're right. Like I've never veered off path here.
I suppose you're right. Like I've never veered off path here.
Well as soon as you have millions of people attempting to change your countries laws, strip your rights and censor your speech, you might change your opinion.
Back to the topic on hand though, I have no problem with immigrants shooting or people taking them out to the range, I just felt the OPs message was more of "you need to do it or else" and less of "its a fun activity which you can do with friends".
Back to the topic on hand though, I have no problem with immigrants shooting or people taking them out to the range, I just felt the OPs message was more of "you need to do it or else" and less of "its a fun activity which you can do with friends".
redneckrepairs
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- May 3, 2005
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The " local immigrant is a balkan refugee who's first name is Vlad ( common usage ) . I wont go into which side of the balkan troubles he was on other than to say he had occation to seek asilam here . We went and shot , and frankly the pistols and rifles for the most part he did not know the actions . He however delt with revolvers the sks rifles i had as well as my sole ( at that time ) ak . Vlad says he did not know guns , but watching his ability makes me think maby he is at least fudging this . the other thing that makes me wonder is the fact that with a peep sight on a common 06 rifle it took him 3 tries to ring a full sized antalope target at 600 yards . Vlad has neither tried to nor will try to buy a gun here tho . He bought a motel instead lol .
Justin
Moderator Emeritus
The subject of this thread is a very worthy one, and as advocates for the right to keep and bear arms, we should be reaching out to people who are curious about the subject and willing to learn more, including legal immigrants.
Quite frankly, H088, you're utterly out of line on this, and frankly I'm a bit taken aback that you would have such a negative view of RKBA advocacy to immigrants, especially on a forum who's head honcho is not only one of the strongest individual proponents of RKBA going, but also an immigrant himself.
Quite frankly, H088, you're utterly out of line on this, and frankly I'm a bit taken aback that you would have such a negative view of RKBA advocacy to immigrants, especially on a forum who's head honcho is not only one of the strongest individual proponents of RKBA going, but also an immigrant himself.
Let's see, America is nation of mostly immigrant mongrels, less the original inhabitants, with it's main culture, laws and ethos coming from England, another thoroughly mongrel nation of wanderers and immigrants.
Me, I'm happy to be English born, American living and proud to claim the title Mongrel Immigrant.
Me, I'm happy to be English born, American living and proud to claim the title Mongrel Immigrant.
cambeul41
Member
Please, I prefer the word ""hybrid"!
Eleven Mike
Member
But I'm too busy clinging to guns and religion. Besides, I'm too embarrassed by my monolingualism.
Mare Sea Bo Coo
Mare Sea Bo Coo
Eleven Mike
Member
In America, we have this thing called a Constitutional Republic. In other words, all laws (even the Const., which includes the 2A) are ultimately subject to majority rule, or (in the case of Const. amendment) a super-majority. So while you have no individual obligation to educate immigrants or take them to the range, it very much behooves us to bring them over to our side.
La Pistoletta
Member
I thought the Constitutional Republic was formed to keep democracy out of certain things that no one should ever tamper with, i.e. individual rights?
Regardless, the way it is today, votes matter. And a vote's a vote. I wonder just how many immigrants are pro, anti and undecided when they first get to the US? Kind of hard to gather any statistics, maybe. But I do think that many are essentially undecided and that therefore, "getting to them first" is a good strategy. It could make a lot of difference for their future opinions.
Regardless, the way it is today, votes matter. And a vote's a vote. I wonder just how many immigrants are pro, anti and undecided when they first get to the US? Kind of hard to gather any statistics, maybe. But I do think that many are essentially undecided and that therefore, "getting to them first" is a good strategy. It could make a lot of difference for their future opinions.
ArfinGreebly
Moderator Emeritus
Saa Har Jeg En Immigrant Son-In-Law
Ja. Det er virkelig sant.
What? You guys don't speak Danish?
How monolingual of you.
Many years ago -- like more than ten -- my oldest daughter (at the ripe old age of 17) ran a construction crew. One of the guys on the crew was a tall, skinny Danish dude. My daughter is herself half Danish. Somehow, though, she never mentioned that one of her minions was a Dane.
She moved to Florida and he returned to Denmark and got his Masters in electrical engineering. Fast forward ten years. She's teaching school and working in administrative positions there, and he's about to accept a position at the patent office in Munich. And, somehow, they find each other online. So they correspond. He decides to visit her Stateside before going to Germany, so he flies down.
Next thing I hear is that I'm invited to a wedding in Florida (but I can't attend -- meh) and that he's going to immigrate. Which sounds fine, until you actually try it.
Over the next three years they move to England ('cuz he can work there) while the immigration stuff stumbles its way through the various embassy channels. I sign stacks of paperwork sponsoring him. I hafta promise that he will be good and not be a burden 'cuz, as we all know, them tall, skinny, well-educated, English-speaking, literate, highly skilled Scandinavian furriners is such a risk, right? They plod through the consular system. They start a family.
Finally, they return and resume the Florida thing.
At long last, they have moved up here to Idaho with us.
And Sooooooooo . . . . . .
I took him shooting, because, well, everyone should know how.
He shoots better than I do. He shot competitively when he was a kid in Denmark. His mother saw to it that he learned how. Seems she had an altogether too-clear recollection of what occupation was like.
It's taking him a bit to get his head around the idea that shooting and gun ownership are baked into the living-in-America package, but he's liking what he sees.
My daughter, on the other hand, needs work. She likes shooting and is learning, but she gets big-eyed if one of the girls starts playing "gun games" with improvised toys.
*Sigh*
Fortunately, I can count on my IMMIGRANT son-in-law to bring her around and get the kids on track.
I'm sure there's a moral in this tale somewhere, but I seem to have mislaid it.
I had planned to "educate" an immigrant. Turns out the immigrant grasps the situation better than my own daughter. (Gotta love our skool sistem.)
Yeah, the Second Amendment "protects" our right to arms. Until the populace are properly indoctrinated, that is.
Immigrants with fresh eyes are a significant part of our hope for the future of liberty. Take the time and make the effort to introduce them to the truth.
If you wait until after they've been pummelled with lies, it takes significantly more effort to gain recognition of the truth.
Ja. Det er virkelig sant.
What? You guys don't speak Danish?
How monolingual of you.
Many years ago -- like more than ten -- my oldest daughter (at the ripe old age of 17) ran a construction crew. One of the guys on the crew was a tall, skinny Danish dude. My daughter is herself half Danish. Somehow, though, she never mentioned that one of her minions was a Dane.
She moved to Florida and he returned to Denmark and got his Masters in electrical engineering. Fast forward ten years. She's teaching school and working in administrative positions there, and he's about to accept a position at the patent office in Munich. And, somehow, they find each other online. So they correspond. He decides to visit her Stateside before going to Germany, so he flies down.
Next thing I hear is that I'm invited to a wedding in Florida (but I can't attend -- meh) and that he's going to immigrate. Which sounds fine, until you actually try it.
Over the next three years they move to England ('cuz he can work there) while the immigration stuff stumbles its way through the various embassy channels. I sign stacks of paperwork sponsoring him. I hafta promise that he will be good and not be a burden 'cuz, as we all know, them tall, skinny, well-educated, English-speaking, literate, highly skilled Scandinavian furriners is such a risk, right? They plod through the consular system. They start a family.
Finally, they return and resume the Florida thing.
At long last, they have moved up here to Idaho with us.
And Sooooooooo . . . . . .
I took him shooting, because, well, everyone should know how.
He shoots better than I do. He shot competitively when he was a kid in Denmark. His mother saw to it that he learned how. Seems she had an altogether too-clear recollection of what occupation was like.
It's taking him a bit to get his head around the idea that shooting and gun ownership are baked into the living-in-America package, but he's liking what he sees.
My daughter, on the other hand, needs work. She likes shooting and is learning, but she gets big-eyed if one of the girls starts playing "gun games" with improvised toys.
*Sigh*
Fortunately, I can count on my IMMIGRANT son-in-law to bring her around and get the kids on track.
I'm sure there's a moral in this tale somewhere, but I seem to have mislaid it.
I had planned to "educate" an immigrant. Turns out the immigrant grasps the situation better than my own daughter. (Gotta love our skool sistem.)
Yeah, the Second Amendment "protects" our right to arms. Until the populace are properly indoctrinated, that is.
Immigrants with fresh eyes are a significant part of our hope for the future of liberty. Take the time and make the effort to introduce them to the truth.
If you wait until after they've been pummelled with lies, it takes significantly more effort to gain recognition of the truth.
Eleven Mike
Member
Well said. But even our Bill of Rights was ultimately created by the super-majority process outlined in the Constitution. And the Constitution itself was ratified by a majority in each state. (Or was it just by a majority of a state convention? I don't recall.) And the Second Amendment could likewise by totally repealed, if enough Americans were convinced to so amend our Constitution.
Yeah, democracy ain't all it's cracked up to be.
clarence222
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+1 Justin
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