Top end AR question

[Ditch-Tiger]

I consider myself pretty knowledgeable when it comes to AR's and recently have a compelling desire to trade one of my AR's for a "top tier" model.

I'm looking for a high-end, tough, milspec and/or better AR that will handle abuse and eat ANYTHING without a hiccup.

So, for my own curiosity, please rank the following brands from highest quality to lowest.


Noveske
Daniel Defense
Larue
LWRC
Colt
Sabre Defense
LMT
Knights
CMMG
Armalite
BCM/Bravo Company
Spikes Tactical

I'm also looking for specifics on Sabre Defense, so if anybody has extra opinions on them i would love to hear.

Also, how close is S&W and Stag to Milspec? Chrome lined bbl standard?

 

[Mags]

I will play, looks like fun...

Noveske
Knights
Larue
LWRC
LMT
Colt
BCM/Bravo Company
Daniel Defense
Spikes Tactical
Sabre Defense
Armalite
CMMG

BTW only the top 4 on my list would I consider "top tier". The middle 5 are what the standard should be and the bottom 3 are better than DPMS and Bushmaster.

 

[Z-Michigan]

I mostly but not entirely agree with Mags' list below:

Noveske
Knights
Larue
LWRC
LMT
Colt
BCM/Bravo Company
Daniel Defense
Spikes Tactical
Sabre Defense
Armalite
CMMG

Here's where I differ:
Noveske - while unquestionably good, it isn't clear that what they make is actually better in any meaningful way than other top brands
Knight's - good luck getting any service if you're a civilian. They seem to cater only to .mil and maybe some more prestigious LEOs.
Colt - top quality, but only offer a handful of models. Not likely to find the set of features you want if you've been paying attention to what's new in the last 10 years.
LMT - somewhat like Colt and Knight's, top quality but service and model options may be limited for civilians.

I have no concerns about the quality of those four, but I wouldn't be likely to buy them for the reasons stated.

Note, I have not personally handled all these brands, and really I doubt that more than two or three THR members have (cue Taliv, I suppose), so take most comments with a grain of salt.

Personally I'd go with Larue if price is no object and they have a setup you want, otherwise I would go with BCM, with DD a very close second.

 

[Z-Michigan]

To add: S&W and Stag both make quality guns, but not in the same league as those on your list except for perhaps Armalite, Sabre, and CMMG. S&W uses 4140 steel, which is fine but not milspec, and I believe most or all their ARs are chrome-lined. Stag I believe also uses 4140 except for stainless steel barrel models.

Sabre Defense is probably in the same league as Armalite and Spike's - I suspect they have a good process control, and they claim mil-spec steel for their barrels, but I haven't seen much indication that they are really premium beyond that.

Keep in mind, the AR platform is so thoroughly understood at this point that even "midrange" manufacturers will put out a higher quality, more thoroughly engineered product than virtually anyone puts out for any non-AR15 firearm. There are so many pesky details that we all talk about for ARs but no one seems to even think about for any other platform. E.g., for an AKM, or M1A, or 1911 - what's the barrel steel? Was the bolt shot peened? Magnetic particle tested after a proof shot? What is the exact alloy used for the bolt and what company made it? Do you have a certificate proving that you really bought Mil 11595-E type steel from a reputable US steel manufacturer? No one asks about a tenth of this stuff with any other platform. I'm not saying it doesn't matter, just that you should keep in mind what level of detail and pickiness really serves a purpose vs. just some theoretical benefit in a test lab that will run 1000 samples of a firearm to failure.

I expect you've already read "The Chart," but if not, take a look:

http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pwswheghNQsEuEhjFwPrgTA&single=true&gid=5&output=html

 

[blackops]

Noveske
Daniel Defense
Larue
Colt
LWRC
Sabre
BCM

I'll go with these in this particular order, after that it's a toss up for me.

 

[smogmage]

Maybe I'm a little partial because I own a couple but my list goes more like this
LWRC
(Head and Shoulders)
Noveske
Larue
Daniel Defense
BCM
Colt
Sabre


LWRCI combines pistion reliability with fantastic accuracy. Their surface conversion technologies among other various innovations to the standard AR is what makes them the premier maker imo.
Extreme OTB http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJsmdcb-16Q
SALT SPRAY TEST http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdbwHqwol10&feature=related

When the rest of the makers start testing to these extremes then I suppose I'll consider them on par.

 

[taliv]

don't take this the wrong way, but that's a suboptimal question. it's sort of trollish (though I don't think you intended it that way); that just gathers a large quantity of mostly meaningless opinions, mostly based on brand reputation, which is in turn mostly based on hearsay. though it may be fun to talk about, which is fine, it's ultimately not useful.

that's because you leave it to everyone else to assume their own definition of "quality".

my advice is to compare the unique specs and features of the models first. and map them to your requirements. Do you want or need double chrome lining? ambi controls? parts interchangeability? a gas piston? proprietary chambers? hammer forged barrel? 2-stage match trigger? etc etc etc


things that matter to you might not matter to me, and vice versa. For example, a previous poster is apparently concerned about salt spray. maybe he lives near the ocean. maybe lube is against his religion. maybe he leaves his gun in the elements for 240 hours before firing them. the salt spray test that doesn't matter to me at all, as I live in the middle of the country, clean my guns maybe once/year and still never see rust. OTOH, LWRC has none of the features I want, and lots of things I don't (e.g. gas piston). I wouldn't say it's higher or lower "quality" than the others on the list. It just has different features, which lots of people want, and lots of people don't.

it's like the people who do magazine and gun tests by running over them with trucks. maybe they live around very poor drivers. i don't know. i have never driven over any of my guns or magazines and don't really see that as a significant risk in the future. but partially loaded mags do occasionally land on the feed lips when i hit the mag release in practice. so having feed lips that flex slightly without bending or breaking matters to me.

so what does quality mean to you? is there something measurable or quantifiable?

and in the end, what are you going to do? are you really going to spend $2k based on internet votes?

 

[W.E.G.]

Colt.

Who were those others?

 

[nwilliams]

I agree completely with Taliv on this one.

My feeling is this. Unless you take the time to actually state why AR maker "A" is better than AR maker "B" then all you are doing is stating what you've heard others say on the internet.

The plain truth is that I doubt anyone here has experience with every AR maker out there so right off the bat people are not speaking from personal experience when they create a best to worst list unless they have owned every single model from every single manufacturer on that list.

If you are looking for a comprehensive guide to picking the right AR for you then you are better off going to the well known (and ofter overused) AR comparison chart that has been floating around the internet for quite some time now. It won't tell you what AR's are the best and what are the worst it will simply tell you what some offer and others don't and you can base your decision off that if you want.
http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pwswheghNQsEuEhjFwPrgTA&single=true&gid=5&output=html

IMO this is a great guide to picking the right AR and certainly more valid than a random list of AR makers based on popular opinion. I would also wager than many of the people who create a list of best to worst AR's are actually referring to this chart anyway and it's the very source of much of the popular opinion.

 

[Zerodefect]

Not this again.

But:
BCM
Larue
KAC
Noveske
Colt

...then just about everything else.

 

[BIGRETIC]

Kinda odd that Colt is in the middle and it is the standard which all others are compared to.That being said(I own a 6920)I will build a BCM rifle next.

 

[Tirod]

Part of the difficulty is that top tier uses parts and processes superior to milspec. Milspec is a great baseline - but swapping nitride for chrome, or hammerforged for button rifled instantly makes it not milspec - and arguably better. That list of changes can go on for dozens of items, largely because military standards are never leading edge, and have to use proven, old school technology as part of the logistics support. Check the battery type on a half dozen optics and ask yourself what is optimal, a special hard to get power source that has exclusive suppliers to the military only, or the ubiquitous AAA?

There's money in those contracts, you don't throw it away making stuff easy to keep running.

The second problem is the concept that the AR military platform has to digest any ammo you feed it. That is unrealistic, and not milspec either. Military ammo is designed for full power operation in combat, and the projectile is geared toward penetrating hard shelled targets and delivering a full charge of gas at a specific level. White box plinker need not apply.

The reality is the M4/M16 is tuned to issue ammo, and the obvious clue is the complete lack of a adjustable gas port. You shoot what you're issued, it works. Pick up some plinker ammo with soft primers, soft brass, soft loading, and malfunctions creep in. It does not cycle well or reliably. Never will - unless you modify the port for various power levels. That's why some M4geries are overgassed with milspec ammo. The port isn't milspec, to keep cheap ammo shooters happy.

The question looks reasonable on the surface, underneath, it's actually bogus. You can't have top tier, milspec, and capable of digesting any ammo. Just ask the semi auto shotgun users how many different actions have come out over the last 30 years trying to do exactly that. It's VERY difficult to get a gun to shoot light loads and heavy alternately, it's even why it's a range test procedure to see if it can. Many can't, despite the marketing hype.

As for milspec in civilian hands, technically, it would only be a Colt, accepted by Tank and Armament Command, engraved US Property, and with a burst or full auto switch. Those are the only real milspec guns out there, EVERYTHING else is not. Good luck with that.

 

[Zerodefect]

Kinda odd that Colt is in the middle and it is the standard which all others are compared to.That being said(I own a 6920)I will build a BCM rifle next.

I own a Colt and a BCM. My 6920 is about equal to BCM's standard barrels. The SS410 and BFH barrels are even better.

My BCM came in flawless condition, not a single scratch. It's ramps look like they were mated or polished while assembled or something. They fit together perfectly, no gap. Just an insane good upper, decent price. But mine wasn't cheap at $1200ish.

Mil-spec ain't top of the line anymore.

 

[strambo]

I would clump them: roughly- Noveske, Knights, LWRC, Larue (these all have some better than milspec parts/quality). Then Colt, BCM, Sabre, DD, LMT. Then Spikes (really close to BCM & DD), then the rest.

From Spikes on up, they are all great, depends on the exact features you want and what you can afford.

 

[Cesiumsponge]

Mil-spec are a set of specifications for a product or process to fall within a certain range of accepted tolerances for that given specification. You can build something above those specifications or below those specifications and and up with a better or worse product. I work in aerospace manufacturing and we deal with AS and MIL specs all day. As someone above mention, its a pretty good way to estimate the quality of a firearm but you can go way above milspec.

 

[Carolina Drifter]

Is anybody considering the Sabre Defense gas piston models?

 

[C-grunt]

Noveske, Larue, DD, BCM, LMT, Colt, KAC, LWRCi.... possibly Spikes.

Cant go wrong with any of them. Just find out what you want and buy it from that company.

 

[psyopspec]

I'll speak to the models I've owned, in very general terms.

Colt 6920 - never a problem. Most challenging shots I ever made with it were silhouette steel at 300m with iron sites.

LMT Piston Upper - once I had everything configured (buffer replaced, optic zeroed) I've managed to shoot 1 MOA groups with XM 855. Haven't tried any match ammo yet, but my results with the Lake City stuff indicate sub-MOA groups are possible. The piston's nice for the fact that I can fire 250 rounds and only have to spend 15-20 minutes for a good cleaning. YMMV, along with your needs vs mine.

 

[killchain]

Still waiting for my Bushmaster to get outperformed by something else.

Course, 90% of it is the shooter.

 

[ifit]

purchased the sabre competition deluxe complete upper not to long ago and im very satisfied with it.
the red dot was still set for 50 yards which explains the first shot way high, then changed poa then got 9 shots in. then the second set of 10 shots put reddot on center mass made no adjustments. cheap 55gr reloads, my barrel is 1:8 twist

then just started reloading, and yesterday could only shoot 50 yards
this is a 10 shot group scoped, nosler 69gr HPBT, 24.2gr of win.-748 powder
never fails, always a flier