torn between 357 sig and 9MM

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Orionengnr I completely disagree, they have been trying for 40 years to make the 357Mag feed in an automatic, rimmed cartridge proved problematic in every instance. Finally rimmless, bottleneck cartridge wins the day, I mean FLAWLESS feeding, w/ maggie velocities! No compromise my friend. You guys go ahead and fall for that Nobody wants them story, the rest of us will be happy to pick them up used!
 
One of the posts that was lost in the recent server changeover included a suggestion that one should try shooting both the 9MM and the .357 SIG before deciding.

That's a good idea, but there is one important caveat: one should not make a judgement on the basis of range shooting. Rather, it is important to try both in high performance pistol shooting, using multiple targets and a timer. The important question is how one does in terms of time required to get multiple shots on each of multiple targets.

One should not confuse noise, blast, flash, recoil, muzzle energy figures, and how water jugs react, with real effectiveness. It should be understood (1) that most modern service rounds are quite adequate and having more punch than you need will likely work against you; and (2) that with one or more rapidly attacking assailants, speed in making multiple hits is of paramount importance.

When one reads accounts of police officers hitting suspects five or six or even a dozen times before they go down, that's because some of those hits involve injuries to a wrist, ankle or calf, and because some involve multiple hits to the same lung, for example. Two things about that: (1) more energy usually won't help; and (2) it does not happen because police officers do not shoot as well at the range as others, it's because of the nature of a rapidly unfolding fight, which would affect any of us in a real world encounter.

Those who try a handgun at the range and conclude that, because they can hit targets with it, it is sufficiently "controllable", really need to try some timed rapid fire at multiple targets. People who are enamored with muzzle energy figures should consider the conclusions set forth in this FBI report.

Some relevant excerpts:

Few, if any, shooting incidents will present ... an opportunity to take a careful, precisely aimed shot at the subject’s head. Rather, shootings are characterized by their sudden, unexpected occurrence; by rapid and unpredictable movement of both officer and adversary; by limited and partial target opportunities; by poor light and unforeseen obstacles; and by the life or death stress of sudden, close, personal violence.

Kinetic energy does not wound. Temporary cavity does not wound. The much discussed "shock" of bullet impact is a fable and "knock down" power is a myth. The critical element is penetration. The bullet must pass through the large, blood bearing organs and be of sufficient diameter to promote rapid bleeding. Penetration less than 12 inches is too little, and, in the words of two of the participants in the 1987 Wound Ballistics Workshop, "too little penetration will get you killed." Given desirable and reliable penetration, the only way to increase bullet effectiveness is to increase the severity of the wound by increasing the size of hole made by the bullet. Any bullet which will not penetrate through vital organs from less than optimal angles is not acceptable. Of those that will penetrate, the edge is always with the bigger bullet.

Personally, I do not need to conduct such an evaluation for myself. The issues of the greater muzzle blast and penetration indicate against the .357 SIG for home defense, and my conclusion that the 9MM is adequate for personal defense makes my decision a simple one for concealed carry.
 
Only you can decide! My personal choice was to sell my G17 and G26. The only 9mm I have left is my PF9. Nothing wrong with the 9mm. I just like the 357 SIG, 357 Mag, 45, 10mm, 22's & 32's more! Something had to go! If I want to bring the 9mm back I can do so with a conversion barrel.
 
Here is some apples to apples data comparing 9mm+p, 40 S&W, and .357 SIG all in sub-compact Glocks and all with Winchester Ranger T ammo:

Winchester Ranger T chrono average for 5 shots:
G26: 124 gr. +p @ 1,162 fps / 372# KE / PF 144
G27: 165 gr. @ 1,116 fps / 456# KE / PF 184
G33: 125 gr. @ 1,280 fps / 454# KE / PF 160

Notice that the .357 SIG and 40 S&W have nearly the same KE, but the .357 SIG produces less recoil as measured by the Power Factor calculation.

I like the proposed inherent edge in feed reliability of the bottleneck .357 SIG
 
I recon the lowly 9mm is responsible for the majority of handgun fatalities in the world. If you do your part it will do its part.

Shot placement is likely the most important factor in shooting for self defense or to achieve stopping a threat.

Due to price and availability of ammo or raw materials (e.g. brass), I would stick with the 9mm between the two.
 
Just a couple of quick thoughts, 1st, bullet setback, I do not have a problem with it. I use AA#9 and for my self defense loads that may get cycled multiple times and there is no issue with setback since the case is full. As for my range loads, they do not get cycled multiple times so it is not an issue, and secondly speaking of that I am a little surprised no one touched on one of the main reasons I bought my 226 in 357 Sig. If I just want to go shoot at the range I do not load to anything close to max, in fact my range loads feel very close to a 9mm, and cost very close to it as well.

I would bet that the difference in cost is within 2 pennies per round, once fired brass is plentiful at about .04 per and I have reloaded mine many times without significant case failures. Reloading for it is no big deal, it was the second round I started loading for, .223 being first so I was accustomed to bottlenecks, just treat it like a mini rifle round and you will have no problems. I use Lee dies for mine because I like the factory crimp die for it.
 
Thanks everyone. I think I'm going to stay with the 9. My reasoning is this.

1. I reload for it
2. I have more than one platform for the 9, and only one for the .357 sig
3. I'm having trouble with the lem trigger. On a good day I see how accurate it is, but I'm just not happy with it. So, thank you all. Excellent discussion.
 
Thanks everyone. I think I'm going to stay with the 9. My reasoning is this.

1. I reload for it
2. I have more than one platform for the 9, and only one for the .357 sig
3. I'm having trouble with the lem trigger. On a good day I see how accurate it is, but I'm just not happy with it. So, thank you all. Excellent discussion.
 
Those who try a handgun at the range and conclude that, because they can hit targets with it, it is sufficiently "controllable", really need to try some timed rapid fire at multiple targets.

Sound advice indeed, and one reason why I choose 9mm.
 
I shoot and carry these three calibers, these are my impressions:

9mm - Standard NATO caliber. Shot thousands back in the service with the Beretta 92. Versatile caliber. works flawlesly in many pistols. Also in the Glock 17 and 19. (I am a glock guy sorry) Cost effective for training with lots of options, value packs and surplus. Full length pistols pack 17 of 18 + 1 rounds that can be very effective.
New defense ammunition is very different from the old days of the infamous miami shoot out. Given that you have a modern pistol that can take the modern +P rounds these are very effective man stoppers. I carry Corbon +P JHP's.
Also it is a great round for the summer to carry a small pistol with light clothes like the Keltec PF9 or the Ruger counterpart. I see no need for a 380 pistol with the options in 9mm. Very easy to reload and forgiving for the reloader.

40cal - Also a very popular and versatile round. USed by many for law enforcement and personal defense. A little more costly than the 9mm but still can find great deals if you buy bulk like any of the popular calibers.
Many of the 180gr loads for target are very accurate and easy to shoot. I am enjoying the Glock 23 gen 4 that takes out a bit of the choppiness of previous models with these rounds. Some of of the Hollow Points are extremely effective defense rounds. I carry Hydrashocks and Gold Dots. Some folks are reporting case failures but in the ones I know off there was involved some manufacturing defect o some reloading story behind bu the true is that some models are having issue with the reloads due to the bulge in the case so not the best option for beginners in the reloading hobby. I love the 165gr rounds for training and the HP for defense too.


357 SIG - This is a very good round. This was designed as a joined effort between SIG arms and Federal. The initial goal was to mimicate some of the ballistics characteristics of the venerable .357 Magnum in a smaller package.
This round uses the same parent case and bolt face and magazines as the 40cal as it is really derived from the .40cal necked down to .357 caliber and adapted for a high pressure chamber. The round is extremely efficient as well. It is the most expensive of all of them so this needs to be taken into account for training budgets. There are some rounds designed for special police that put a 85gr solid bullet at 2000fps. The purpose of this round is A) defeat standard body armor B) Huge amount of energy is left in the target through quick expansion.
This is the caliber of many agencies and special units including our Secret servcie so that says a lot for the round.
I specially enjoy the flat shooting, moderate recoil and the brutal amount of energy it packs.

Each option has its pros and cons but nevertheless all three above amazing options for the autoloader shooter.

I hope this helps someone.
 
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