Tourist Visa + Hunting License = Open Carry?

[Fosbery]

As I understand it:

It is illegal for someone who is not a resident of the United States to possess a firearm there.

However, a hunting license can be acquired which gives that person permission to possess a firearm.

In most states it is legal to open carry without any kind of permit (and to concealed carry in Alaska and Vermont).

Does this mean that if I come to the US on holiday and get a hunting license I can buy a gun and open carry it while I am there (and concealed carry if I go to Vermont or Alaska)?

How does one get a hunting license? How difficult is this? Will I actually need to do some hunting while I'm there? Are there any restrictions upon the type of gun I can possess with a hunting license? How long does/can this license last?

Will this hunting license plus my travel documents let me buy a gun at a gun store? (presumably, if not, I can still buy at a gun show?)

Am I right that, since there is no law against open carry in most states, it is therefore legal even for a non-resident of the United States so long as their possession of the gun is legal (which it would be because if the hunting license)?

 

[TexasRifleman]

Interesting idea. That's likely to be very complicated.

Am I right that, since there is no law against open carry in most states, it is therefore legal even for a non-resident of the United States so long as their possession of the gun is legal

You might want to check the fine print on that. Open carry may be legal in many states but is often severely restricted. You will need to verify the open carry laws in every state you intend to visit.

How does one get a hunting license? How difficult is this? Will I actually need to do some hunting while I'm there? Are there any restrictions upon the type of gun I can possess with a hunting license? How long does/can this license last?

This is why it will be complicated. Every state you intend to visit will have different laws on licensing, guns allowed, etc.

 

[Fosbery]

What about being given or lent a gun? Not sure if anyone would be kind/stupid enough to do that, but neither do I fancy carrying a rifle or shotgun around with me since handguns are banned here

EDIT: Ok, you edited your post lol. Was what you originally said incorrect?

 

[JImbothefiveth]

Hanguns are expensive. If you'll only be here temporarily it's probably not worth it.

 

[PBinWA]

Does this mean that if I come to the US on holiday and get a hunting license I can buy a gun and open carry it while I am there (and concealed carry if I go to Vermont or Alaska)?

How does one get a hunting license? How difficult is this? Will I actually need to do some hunting while I'm there? Are there any restrictions upon the type of gun I can possess with a hunting license? How long does/can this license last?

Will this hunting license plus my travel documents let me buy a gun at a gun store? (presumably, if not, I can still buy at a gun show?)

Am I right that, since there is no law against open carry in most states, it is therefore legal even for a non-resident of the United States so long as their possession of the gun is legal (which it would be because if the hunting license)?

I think you have been mislead by the MSM about how easy it is to buy a gun.

In most states there is a residency requirement in order to purchase a firearm. Typically, this is 3 months and requires proof (i.e. utility bills). You would need to have a long tourist visa to achieve this. Even then there may limits on people with tourist visas.

I'm pretty sure most open-carry provisions only apply to citizens or permanent residents.

I have yet to go to a gun show where I could legally buy a gun without some form of background check but I've only lived in a few states.

You can probably still buy a gun - it may not be legal but you can probably do it if you try hard enough. I'm not an expert though so I may be totally off-base. As an immigrant to the USA, it has been my experience that it is not that easy to legally purchase firearms.

I think as a hunter you are either supposed to bring your gun with you or borrow one from a friend or guide.

 

[TexasRifleman]

EDIT: Ok, you edited your post lol. Was what you originally said incorrect?

As I looked into it the Federal laws may give you relief as you suggest but state laws on both the sale of guns and the issuance of hunting licenses to non-citizens get fairly restrictive in most places it appears.

 

[Dark Skies]

If you're just looking to get some pistol shooting in why not just go to a range and rent a few hours shooting? That's what I do when I'm Stateside.

I'd avoid all that hunting license malarky to try and circumnavigate US firearms law - their crazy inter-state / Federal laws are so complicated that it'd be easy for a foreigner to get caught out and end up getting deported - or maybe worse.

 

[deadin]

I don't know about the non-resident bit, but it's my understanding that open carry on a hunting license is intended for open carry WHILE hunting. I don't think it would be wise to try to convince a LEO that you are hunting when in downtown Los Angles or somewhere similar.
Also, you might check out the cost of non-resident hunting licenses. They can get pretgty expensive.

 

[Fosbery]

It's not just wanting to shoot pistols, it's wanting to experience the freedom and self-sufficiency of carrying a gun in public, in plain clothes. Something I've never done before.

As for cost, I think a Glock 30, for example would be under $600? That's like £300. Used, I could surely get any accessories I might need, like a holster for that price too. If I'm there for three weeks, £100 per week... I think that's worth it. Especially when I'm looking at thousands of pounds in flights, hotel fees, insurance, luggage etc.

 

[Dark Skies]

I think the novelty would wear off pretty quick. There are so many places where you can't carry by law or because someone has a sign in the window that prohibits them on the premises that it soon becomes a pain to have to keep stashing it whilst you go about your business.

My wife (Ohioan) used to carry a .357 snubby in her handbag and was forever having to turn on a doorstep, run back to her truck, stash the pistol in the glove compartment and then dash back across the street all the time when we were courting. It just became a bother.

 

[kanook]

you forgot the most important thing. If you come to the U.S. and purchase a handgun thru some "loophole" that you figured out, being that you are not a citizen of this country and you are in possesion of a handgun you now become a statistic for the gungrabbers on how easy and why we need more gun control

 

[Fosbery]

You don't have to be a citizen to own guns though? Just a permanent resident I thought.

Besides, I'm not sure the gun grabbers actually have statistics on "British tourists who get hunting licenses and buy guns"

 

[Quiet]

You can not legally purchase a firearm, if you just have a tourist visa. [USC 922(g)(5)(B)]

Your tourist visa + hunting license, allows someone (a resident of the state you are in) to lend you a firearm for sporting purposes (hunting/competition shooting) only. [USC 922(a)(5)(B)]

Your tourist visa + hunting license, allows you to aquire a firearm. [USC 922(y)(2)(A)]

You will also need to check with the state, you are traveling in, in order to determine when/how you can legally transport/possess/use a firearm.


US Code Title 18, Part 1, Chapter 44, Section 922
(a) It shall be unlawful—
(5) for any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) to transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the transferor resides; except that this paragraph shall not apply to
(B) the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes;

(g) It shall be unlawful for any person—
(5) who, being an alien—
(B) except as provided in subsection (y)(2), has been admitted to the United States under a nonimmigrant visa (as that term is defined in section 101(a)(26) of the Immigration and Nationality Act (8 U.S.C. 1101 (a)(26)));

(y) Provisions Relating to Aliens Admitted Under Nonimmigrant Visas.—
(2) Exceptions.— Subsections (d)(5)(B), (g)(5)(B), and (s)(3)(B)(v)(II) do not apply to any alien who has been lawfully admitted to the United States under a nonimmigrant visa, if that alien is—
(A) admitted to the United States for lawful hunting or sporting purposes or is in possession of a hunting license or permit lawfully issued in the United States;

 

[TexasRifleman]

You can not legally purchase a firearm, if you have a tourist visa.

Surprisingly that doesn't seem to be true.

18USC922 (y)2:

(2) Exceptions.--Subsections (d)(5)(B), (g)(5)(B), and
(s)(3)(B)(v)(II) do not apply to any alien who has been lawfully
admitted to the United States under a nonimmigrant visa, if that
alien is--
(A) admitted to the United States for lawful hunting or
sporting purposes or is in possession of a hunting license or
permit lawfully issued in the United States;

The 3 sections it exempts include:

(d) 5 B

(d) It shall be unlawful for any person to sell or otherwise dispose
of any firearm or ammunition to any person knowing or having reasonable
cause to believe that such person--

(5) who, being an alien--
(A) is illegally or unlawfully in the United States; or
(B) except as provided in subsection (y)(2), has been
admitted to the United States under a nonimmigrant visa (as that
term is defined in section 101(a)(26) of the Immigration and
Nationality Act (8 U.S.C. 1101(a)(26)));

http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=browse_usc&docid=Cite:+18USC922


I'm not so sure he can't buy a gun while on a visa, with a hunting license. The above seems to indicate it's OK.

 

[rscalzo]

Unless he has some sort of proof of residence, what state will sell anything on just a VISA? At the very least a dl is usually required as a proof of residence.

Transport on a hunting license? Transport between states will still require the firearm being secured. That seems to be a recipe for incarceration somewhere down the line.

 

[kanook]

"Besides, I'm not sure the gun grabbers actually have statistics on "British tourists who get hunting licenses and buy guns" " but they do hane people running around saying "I bought 10 guns in less then 1 hour without a single backround check". I am just trying to say if you get a gun thru different channels without doing it properly and get questioned or caught you then become a statistic. If you want to hunt with a handgun than by all means get the proper training and do it. and I do believe non citizens can get a firearm, but I don't think a tourist will qualify for the proper channels.

 

[bonza]

When i first came to the U.S., on a Tourist Visa, I purchased a cap & ball black powder revolver from a dealer in Florida. In most states black powder guns are not covered by the same restrictions as modern cartridge firearms. I am now a U.S. citizen & live in the Seattle area, & am pretty sure it would be next to impossible for a non-resident alien to purchase a firearm from a dealer here in Washington state, in fact even our own resident aliens have to have a Alien Firearms Licence to use &/or posess a fiream.

 

[carebear]

Might there be additional issues vis-a-vis handgun versus long gun?

 

[NavyLCDR]

REGARDLESS of anything associated with a hunting license/tourist visa, the Brit would have to remain in one state for 90 days in order to be considered a resident of that state for the purposes of ANY firearms purchase:
478 Code of Federal Regulations section 11:

State of residence. The State in which an individual resides. An individual resides in a State if he or she is present in a State with the intention of making a home in that State. If an individual is on active duty as a member of the Armed Forces, the individual's State of residence is the State in which his or her permanent duty station is located. An alien who is legally in the United States shall be considered to be a resident of a State only if the alien is residing in the State and has resided in the State for a period of at least 90 days prior to the date of sale or delivery of a firearm. The following are examples that illustrate this definition:

Example 1. A maintains a home in State X. A travels to State Y on a hunting, fishing, business, or other type of trip. A does not become a resident of State Y by reason of such trip.

Example 2. A is a U.S. citizen and maintains a home in State X and a home in State Y. A resides in State X except for weekends or the summer months of the year and in State Y for the weekends or the summer months of the year. During the time that A actually resides in State X, A is a resident of State X, and during the time that A actually resides in State Y, A is a resident of State Y.

Example 3. A, an alien, travels on vacation or on a business trip to State X. Regardless of the length of time A spends in State X, A does not have a State of residence in State X. This is because A does not have a home in State X at which he has resided for at least 90 days.

If you are going to be a tourist in the same state within the US for 90 days, then we'll talk - until then, your best bet is to be loaned a firearm or, as someone suggested, a cap and ball revolver.

A purchase of a rifle under the out of state exemption for FFLs (18 USC (b)(3)) is also out of the question, because the Brit tourist would have NO state of residency for at least 90 days.

If you could find someone to take you Cowboy Action Shooting - that would probably be just about the most fun you could have with a gun with your pants on.

 

[Fosbery]

From the law linked to above, first, there is a ban on transferring guns to non-residents:

(d) It shall be unlawful for any person to sell or otherwise dispose
of any firearm or ammunition to any person knowing or having reasonable
cause to believe that such person--
(5) who, being an alien--
(A) is illegally or unlawfully in the United States; or
(B) except as provided in subsection (y)(2), has been
admitted to the United States under a nonimmigrant visa (as that
term is defined in section 101(a)(26) of the Immigration and
Nationality Act (8 U.S.C. 1101(a)(26)));

Notice the bold, there is an exemption under section (y)(2).

Second, there is a ban on non-residents carrying firearms across state lines etc:

(g) It shall be unlawful for any person--
(5) who, being an alien--
(A) is illegally or unlawfully in the United States; or
(B) except as provided in subsection (y)(2), has been
admitted to the United States under a nonimmigrant visa (as that
term is defined in section 101(a)(26) of the Immigration and
Nationality Act (8 U.S.C. 1101(a)(26)));

to ship or transport in interstate or foreign commerce, or possess in or
affecting commerce, any firearm or ammunition; or to receive any firearm
or ammunition which has been shipped or transported in interstate or
foreign commerce.

Again notice the exemption in (Y)(2). Here is that exemption:

(y) Provisions Relating to Aliens Admitted Under Nonimmigrant
Visas.--
(2) Exceptions.--Subsections (d)(5)(B), (g)(5)(B), and
(s)(3)(B)(v)(II) do not apply to any alien who has been lawfully
admitted to the United States under a nonimmigrant visa, if that
alien is--
(A) admitted to the United States for lawful hunting or
sporting purposes or is in possession of a hunting license or
permit lawfully issued in the United States;

Notice that this exemption applies to (d)(5)(B) (my first quote) and (g)(5)(b) (my second quote) as above. It also applies to (s)(3)(B)(v)(II) which I won't quote but is the requirement for dealers to have people they sell guns to sign a form saying they are not a non-resident "subject to section (y)(2)" i.e. when you sign one of those forms you are saying "I am not a non-resident who does not have a hunting license."

I actually can't see any law which bans possession of firearms by non-residents, only the transfer of guns to them?

So, as far as I can tell from reading that law, if I get a hunting license, it is indeed legal for people to sell guns to me and for me to carry them across state lines. Furthermore, it only says "a hunting license" lawfully issued in the United States - not a hunting license specific to the state you are in. So I can get a hunting license in New Hampshire and that means I'm legal to sell guns to in California or Alaska also.

 

[NavyLCDR]

Your possession of firearms would, probably, definitely be legal, except in states where state law would prohibit it, such as Washington state (without an alien firearms license - AFL). Transportation across state lines is no bid deal either, until you transport into a state where possession would be illegal, such as Washington without the Washington AFL.

NOBODY can sell, give or otherwise transfer a firearm to be "yours" in a permanent sense, they can only loan you a firearm for temporary use, UNTIL you establish residency in a state. And to establish residency in a state, you, as a legal alien, must live in a state for 90 days.

Private party transactions in any firearms are PROHIBITED between persons who do not reside in the same state: 18 USC 922 (a)(3) and (a)(5). FFLs are prohibited from transferring handguns to persons who do not reside in the same state: 18 USC (b)(3). FFLs may sell long guns to out of state residents, HOWEVER, the state of residence of the buyer MUST be KNOWN and PROVEN to that FFL: 18 USC (b)(3).

So, until you reside in a state for 90 days as required by 478 CFR 11, it is against Federal law for ANYONE, licensed or not, to give, sell or otherwise permanently transfer any firearm for you to own. Temporary loans are OK, though.

 

[solareclipse]

You need to provide a 3+ months residency. Which means you need to have a utility bill in your name in the states for 3 consequtive months + a LOCAL id!


Please don't try it otherwise, please! PLEASE!

(else you are not exempt from the prohibition of firearm posession (you can technically still rent at a range and shoot though). as far as carrying, open or otherwise it varies by state but it generally involves a permit and waiting on the nice folks at the DHS (puke) to clear you as a non border jumper)

Keep in mind that nobody even knows the law so you are really setting yourself up by trying to skim it and interpret it on the go. Cops are clueless, judges have no idea what you are even talking about so in the unfortunate event it becomes an issue, you are guilty until you find an attorney to explain it to them. FFL dealers are even more clueless so dont even bother with them.

So there you have it. You need to be a resident of a state for over 3 months and have a local id + that license to be in lawful posession/able to purchase a firearm on the *federal* level. Locals laws... well luisiana is weird and washington state is another weird one

 

[deadin]

Welcome to the morass of Federal and local State laws and regulations concerning firearms. As stated in another post, nobody really knows exactly what they all mean. Omissions and contradictions abound throughout.
Unless you (or your lawyer) can find case law that addresses exactly what you may be charged with, you would probably spend most of the time stated on your visa traveling back and forth to court. So, instead of being able to brag to your friends back home about how you carried a gun just like the old wild west, you will be able to describe our wonderful court system. (And how you made case law.)

Has anyone looked up the Immigration and Nationality Act (8 U.S.C. 1101(a)(26))) that was mentioned in the firearms regulations? It probably describes exactly what a " Lawful hunting or sporting purposes" visa is. I would guess it is somewhat different that a regular tourist visa.

 

[everallm]

In a nutshell,

No Green Card (Permanent Resident Alien), No Legal Purchase.

Even with a Green Card when the FFL fills in the 4473 form you still have to show 90 days residence in that state, typically via utility or credit card bills etc. Green Card, state issued ID and proof of residence.

You do NOT have to have local state issued ID (such as a drivers licence) although it is a pain in the arse if you don't.

You then have to show your Green Card AND your passport AND your utility bills and the wait for Go/No-Go tends to be extended.

With a hunting licence you can take temporary physical control of a firearm for the purposes of hunting and associated tasks (such as time at a range for sighting in). This is not to be confused with ownership or possession of the firearm.

Few LEO's will have any idea of the intricacies of this area of the law so if you get pulled over for some other reason and the issue of why you have a firearm with a tourist visa comes up expect to be held for a while whilst this gets batted backwards and forwards.

This is ONLY applicable for Federal law and if you are in a state such as New Jersey which mandates a Firearms ID card you are SOL in general.

 

[Gungnir]

Fosberry,

I'm a former Brit, living in the US, have a CPL and can see where you're going with this.

1. Visa, you'd need to show 90 days residency, which means you need a DHS/USCIS issued visa, not enter the US on the Visa Waiver Program (a tourist visa) as that only allows you to be in the US for 90 days, post that you're an illegal immigrant; therefore you'd need to apply for the visa prior to arrival, and have a reason for the extended visa.
2. Purchasing as mentioned you'd need to have evidence of residency for 90 days prior to purchase, also the NICS (if the state uses this system) check would include an IAQ (illegal alien query) to check your current status. This may come back deny anyway depending on your visa, and how that system works.
3. Hunting licenses, as already mentioned, can be damn expensive for non-residents/non-citizens depending on the state. Also I wouldn't carry with a hunting license from another state, that's going to wind up with you on the next flight home.
4. Open carry with all of the above, not all states allow open carry, even those that do can have some issues with people doing it in certain legal places. You can get some hassle from the cops, as a non-immigrant be very aware that your constitutional protections are limited, and you can very easily be dropped off at the nearest airport in custody and deported.
5. Local and Federal Firearms regulations need to be followed, if you cross a state county or city line you could be required to follow different regulations. Without being here it's difficult at times to understand this, one other thing, is most Firearm offenses are considered felonies, which are deportable offenses.
6. The nature of open carry, depending on state how open carry is defined can change, sometimes it's where the Firearm is not actively concealed, other times it's where the firearm must be plainly visible at all times for instance you have an OWB holster (outside waist band) and your shirt or jacket accidentally partially covers your gun, could sometimes be considered as concealed carry.

So, if this is some John Wayne mental masturbation plan, then keep it mental unless you're actually resident (non-immigrant, or immigrant).

If you plan on trying this, then make sure you have enough cash to get a good lawyer, and hope you're not considered an enemy combatant.

One final thing is, consider what would happen if you needed to defend yourself in that situation, do you have the training required to deal with the situation without lethal force, or are you prepared for the consequences should you actually use the firearm you have? Remember that you have limited constitutional rights, and not everywhere will view you acting in self defense as appropriate given the hoops you jumped through to be armed.