Trailboss in 1858 conversion cylinder?

[A strange person]

I understand that the cartridge conversion cylinders for the Uberti Remington 1858 are meant to handle black powder "cowboy" loads. My question is, could one safely use IMR trailboss powder? Perhaps the 160 gr. LRNFP load on the Hodgdon load data site?

 

[Pulp]

I'm gonna say yes, since I've shot smokeless "cowboy" loads through my R&D conversion cylinder, but I'm gonna qualify that by saying, "Proceed at your own risk"

I'd recommend a phone call to Kirst or R&D.

 

[Skinny 1950]

The Remington design is stronger than the Colt open top design but neither were designed for smokeless powder.
Stick to black powder.
Be safe.
Have fun.

 

[Mike 56]

Conversion cylinders are made to shoot smoke less or black powder cowboy loads. Trail boss will fine it is a very mild powder it makes a 30-30 shoot like a 22. I have shot Trail boss, red dot, unique, and bullseye in conversion cylinders.
http://www.howelloldwestconversions.com/

Mike

 

[A strange person]

Thanks for the link, mike.

My instinct tells me it should be fine. It's certainly nothing like any other smokeless powder. I've used it in a .308. Filling the case to the base of the bullet, the load is like a .357MAG from a handgun.

 

[tango2echo]

I have shot thousands of rounds of "Cowboy" and "Standard" .45LC loads through a pair of Pietta 1858's with R&D cylinders. The cylinders are proofed to 25,000PSI at the factory and are stronger than the guns frame. They are made just like the cylinder on any modern revolver. The cylinder is not the worry. Normal .45LC loads are around 13,000PSI and "Cowboy" loads are around 9,000PSI.

I have loaded and shot several hundred rounds of MBC's 250gr RNFP with 5.5 to 5.8gr of TrailBoss and their 200gr RNFP with 6.0 to 6.5gr of TrailBoss. I have some 165gr RN that I want to try, but have not had time. Somewhere between 7.5gr and 8.5gr should be good for the 165's. As a general rule, the heavier bullets will shoot HIGHER that the lighter ones out ot 50 yards or so. I have had to modify my sights to shoot to POA.

Stay away from the "hot" .45LC loads and "Ruger Only" loads. BTW, I have taken several deer with Hornadys 250gr .451 XTP at about 800fps out of the 1858 and one with the 200gr RNFP at 6.5gr of TrailBoss and 885fps. Ranges out to about 45-50 yards.

t2e

 

[44vaquero]

Sure you can, I have a .45 acp Kirst conversion in my 1858 Pietta. Kirst recommends Cowboy only lead loads(no jacketed bullets) under 1000 FPS. I shoot both .45 acp and .45 Cowboy Special brass:

130gr Barnstormer Mark II .45 CBS 4.3gr Trail Boss 764 fps STD D 23 fps
Easy Shooter

200gr BBWC .45 ACP 4.3gr Trail Boss 742 fps STD D 17 fps
Rings real nice when you hit the spinner

Please note Trail boss is a very interesting powder, same charge weight 70 grain diff in bullet weight and only 22 fps diff in velocity!

In the interest of not over stressing the frame I have elected to shoot nothing over 200 grains. I am currently casting a bunch of Lee's 160 grain bullets for this gun.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=113462

 

[A strange person]

tango2echo. what cylinders do you use? The only ones I know of are Howells and Kirst. I couldn't find anything about the pressure rating on either's site, except on Kirst's, it says not to load anything over 1000 fps like 44vaquero said. That seemed strange to me, as one could obviously load heavier bullets for less than 1000 fps, but with higher PSI than a much lighter bullet going more than 1000 fps. I just emailed them about this, awaiting a response.

Do you have any links regarding the 25,000 PSI proof you mentioned? Not that I'm calling you a liar... It'd be awesome to load an 1858 to the same level as a standard .45LC, but it'd be even more awesome to do this and still have hands after.

 

[A strange person]

I've just found something interesting. Buffalo arms sells conversion cylinders for both the Uberti and the Pietta 1858 chambered in .45ACP. Seeing's how there is obviously no .45ACP "cowboy" ammo, this implies that standard .45ACP ammo can be used in an 1858. The .45ACP runs higher pressures than any standard pressure .45LC loads.

 

[craneman]

Note that the .45acp cylinders are all 5 shot and are considerably thicker, than the 6 shot counterparts. There is a huge difference in 17,000psi CUP (.45acp) and 11,000psi CUP(.45 Colt). I have loaded countless .45 colt with trailboss and shot them in a Pietta 1858. I have went as high as 6.5 grn with a 200grn alloy lead. That yeilded about 855fps and 11,000psi CUP. It has been safe for me and pretty darned accurate, too. This was through an R&D (howell) 6 shot conversion cylinder. Thats as high as I felt comfortable going. My normal load is 5.5 grns with the same 200grn slug. Neither have had any leading, and as a side benefit are a hoot to shoot.

I guess bottom line is, I wouldn't load to .45acp pressures in the .45 Colt cylinder.

 

[tango2echo]

Since Howell bought out R&D they do not list the pressure rating. Prior to, they did. (infact it was once in print in the older DGW catalogs) All of the 5 shot conversions are safe with normal pressure .45LC loads (IME), which rarely see above 13,000psi. What you must remember here is that the CYLINDER may accept the pressure, but the FRAME may not. Never shoot normal .45LC loads in a brass framed gun. In a modern production, steel framed 1858, with a Kirst or Howell (R&D) cylinder, any cowboy or normal load is acceptable, as long as it is within the limits of normal .45LC pressures. Heavy bullets will cause more wear and tear on the frame than lighter ones, so keep that in mind also. The original black powder loads actually had a higher psi than most modern smokeless loadings. A .45LC case crammed full of FFFG and a 300gr RNFP will reach close to 14,500psi.

The .45ACP cylinders are the same steel, with the same heat treatment. The cylinder walls are nearly the same. (I own both and have measured). Either is safe with normal production loads. Just stay away from the Ruger only stuff and +P loads.

I have put a steady diet of 10-13,000psi loads through one of my 1858's for a couple thousand rounds with absolutely no issues.

You will probably not find an in print pressure rating today due to the liability of persons using the cylinders in brass framed guns and with the "hot" .45LC loads that are on the market. (some of which are into .454 pressures now)

t2e

 

[44vaquero]

I always get a bit nervous when people start talking about max pressure and hand-loading. It's hard to compare apples to apples from one cartridge to another versus bullet weight etc, let alone one loading manual to another!
SAAMI Specs are as follows:

.45 ACP 21000psi or 19900CUP
.45 ACP+P 23000psi
.45 Colt 14000psi or 15900CUP

Hence the rule of thumb "Under 1000 fps and lead bullets only"! Just because because you "can" does not mean you "should". So no I would not shoot just any .45 ACP load in my Kirst conversion. Just a quick glance at my Lee reloading shows more than a few loads that hit the Cowboy Load magic number of 750 fps and are well under the Colt max ceiling of 14000psi.

All things being considered, I have chosen to limit my 1858 Remington Kirst conversion's to bullet weights 200 grains or less and under 900 fps. Remember these revolvers are made from mild steel and a design that's over 150 years old, even if the cylinder is proofed higher.

If you want faster and heavy-er get a Ruger Old Army and blast away, they can take it!

 

[A strange person]

All I want is to make a 200-230 grain bullet go 900 fps, give or take. I figure that'd smoke bambi out to 50 yards or so. Of course, the standard round ball load probably could too.

 

[rcflint]

I have been shooting Remingtons by Uberti and Pietta with R&D (Howell) and Kirst cylinders for as long as those cylinders have been available. Once in all those years, I loaded black powder. Loaded a few boxes with 777 and CleanShot, but I have used Unique, Bullseye, 231, Titegroup, Clays and Trailboss extensively. I use the same 45Colt loads I use in my Colts and cartridge Ubertis.

The cylinders, backplates and revolver frames are in fine shape.

 

[44vaquero]

Rcflint, That's good to hear! It is my hope the my grandchildren (when I have some) will be shooting my Remington's in the future.