Transition training for new Sig duty pistols

[Bikewer]

Spent the last two days in training with my new duty piece, the Sig P229.

We've been issuing the Glock 23 for about 15 years. For reasons still not entirely clear, the department decided to drop the Glock in favor of the Sig. (It's their money....)
So anyway, we've been doing this in groups of 4 officers. Spent the first four hours in the classroom, reviewing the Use Of Force policy and going over the gun and it's operation and disassembly and cleaning and all that.

Then, off to the range. Day one we spent a lot of time (as you might imagine) getting used to the SA/DA trigger and the de-cocker. We didn't have any accidents... I did re-holster once without de-cocking but the gun was dry at the end of a firing string.
We did a lot of two-shot strings, first round DA and the second SA. That Sig has a sweet SA trigger....
Reloading drills... Load one round in each magazine and fire three-shot strings with combat reloads.

I was pretty impressed with the gun. Feels good, very solid... Sweet shooter.

Second day we spent almost 8 more hours on the range, doing much the same thing. We threw in two qualifying rounds. Fired the first one of 60 as a run-through, then the second at the end of the day. I got everything in the K-zone the second time through, with most everything in one ragged hole save for a few flyers at 25 yards with the DA trigger pull. Still getting that down.

Overall I'm impressed with the weapon... But I have my misgivings. Most of our 30-ish man department are reasonably competent, but we have a few officers who are physically small and/or who have very limited shooting background and by most reports they have been having trouble.
The gun is just a bit more complex than the Glock, which has as one of it's charms it's utter simplicity of use.
We'll see....

 

[HOOfan_1]

Odd that your department bought SA/DA guns, most police seem to use DAO or Double action Kellerman. Different trigger pull is certainly something that takes much getting used too....I wonder if some officers in your area will decide they would rather cock the gun instead of starting off in DA

 

[YZ]

I sold my service-grade SIG because I felt it was messing up my finger muscle memory trained on Glocks. As a civilian owner I was very reluctant to let it go, but it was a rational thing to do. As long as one doesn't mix up the two, the reflexes will follow.

 

[9mmepiphany]

The nice thing about the SIG system is that there is the option of accommodating officers with smaller hands or the inability to correctly manage the trigger.

The first is usually accomplished by switching in a Short Trigger and/or the E2 (E squared) grips.

The second can be accomplished by converting the action to either a DAO or a DAK with a simple switch in parts

 

[YZ]

Gen 4 Glocks also accommodate smaller hands.

 

[David E]

I wonder if some officers in your area will decide they would rather cock the gun instead of starting off in DA

99% of the time, they're foolish if they do.

 

[9mmepiphany]

I wonder if some officers in your area will decide they would rather cock the gun instead of starting off in DA

I almost missed this section.

This is a really horrible idea and any "advantage" would be negligible...I thought folks stopped even considering this back in the 70s.

It's disadvantages include being slower to the first shot, more dangerous to the cocking thumb and being less accurate for a fast shot.

It has been proven, back in the late 70s that there is no difference in the speed to the first accurate shot between a SA or DA trigger stroke

 

[HOOfan_1]

I almost missed this section.

This is a really horrible idea and any "advantage" would be negligible...I thought folks stopped even considering this back in the 70s.

I know...that is why I am surprised they opted to go for a DA/SA gun instead of DAO or DAK. But not necessarily for the reasons you mentioned, and more for the fact that it is more dangerous holding someone at gunpoint.

 

[Nordeste]

Mistake, IMHO. I carry a DA/SA on duty, a 92FS, would love to carry a Glock. Simplicity of use, as you mentioned. In the event of an armed confrontation, all you worry about is reholstering, no fiddling with decockers under stress.

 

[9mmepiphany]

In the event of an armed confrontation, all you worry about is reholstering, no fiddling with decockers under stress.

Ir must be a larger problem than I realize. But then I carried a SIG as a duty gun for a lot of years and always just decocked after each string of fire or while holding suspects at gunpoint.

I remember when LAPD first went to the Beretta 92, they had Hume modify their issue holsters to de-cock the guns as the thumb break was applied

 

[TEC]

The Sig P229 in 40 S&W is a rock solid handgun, and is the weapon I'd want at hand if things get bad. Best SA/DA trigger I know of, though mine is the custom shop model. The short reset trigger makes the 2nd and 3rd shots quick and accurate. It did take some time to get the feel and rhythm of shooting the Sig at first, but given the choice, I will always take the Sig. Not a LEO, just a citizen, but for carrying with a chambered round, drawing from a holster, and putting 2 or 3 quick shots center mass, the Sigs seem hard to beat, IMO. Ditto P220 45 auto, ditto P225 9 mm. Easy barrel swap to go from 45 to 22LR in the P220 for practice plinking, or from 40 S&W to 357 sig in the P229, though I haven't felt the need for anything other than the 40. Don't dislike the Glocks, just don't own one. Have heard some knock the 40 S&W Glocks for having an unsupported chamber, but don't hear anything else but praise for the Glocks.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

 

[ritepath]

Never thought of my 229 as complicated.

 

[YZ]

Not complicated, but less foolproof I guess.

 

[ScarLata]

I own the Glock 23 gen4 and Sig P229. I like both! For me, it's an upgrade your new duty piece.

 

[David E]

I am surprised they opted to go for a DA/SA gun instead of DAO or DAK. But not necessarily for the reasons you mentioned, and more for the fact that it is more dangerous holding someone at gunpoint.

If you're cocking the hammer to hold someone at gunpoint, you're a lawsuit waiting to happen.

Holding someone at gunpoint with the hammer down is no more/less dangerous than using a Sig with the DAK trigger.

 

[HOOfan_1]

If you're cocking the hammer to hold someone at gunpoint, you're a lawsuit waiting to happen.
.

OP already stated that the non-gun people involved in training were having problems. That is why it seems most departments seem to be taking single action out of the equation all together...hence why I have said about three times in this thread, I am surprised they went with a SA/DA gun....

We are looking at this situation as gun people who already know the difference between DA and SA. If you have a bunch of non-gun people who are used to the operation of a Glock, a couple of days training might not be enough to switch over to DA/SA. For people like 9mmepiphany, decocking the hammer before holstering and before holding a suspect is second nature. He automatically does it, even under stress, without expending much thought. How much training did that take him? Are police departments willing to expend that much time training, in order to help their officers transition from a completely different platform?

I think it is pretty well established that departments spend minimal time on fire arms training. A DA/SA gun requires more training and experience. I am sure the members here, both LEO and non-LEO who carry DA/SA guns spend a lot more time training and familiarizing themselves with their weapons. For many LEO, the gun receives no more thought, and probably a lot less thought than other aspects of their job.

 

[jerkface11]

Why would cocking the hammer on a semiauto ever be considered an option?

 

[Bikewer]

The only scenario I can see is if you wanted to engage a suspect at long range...Where you'd have comparatively more time.

I shot my qualification round well enough so that most rounds went into one ragged hole and there were three flyers... All still in the K-zone. I thought that was pretty much OK...
But when I got to work the next day I found I had suddenly become The Greatest Pistol Shot On The Department...

My big trouble is my aging eyes.

 

[Bovice]

Yikes. Holstering a SIG in SA is bad. My advice is to slow the reholstering process and think about the specific actions until they become ingrained.

 

[rcmodel]

Holstering a SIG in SA is bad.

Bad. But not real bad.

The gun simply can't fire unless the trigger is held to the rear to depress the firing pin safety.

Not as bad as holstering a Glock with your shirt tail in the trigger guard for instance.

rc

 

[Chuck R.]

Bad. But not real bad.

The gun simply can't fire unless the trigger is held to the rear to depress the firing pin safety.

Not as bad as holstering a Glock with your shirt tail in the trigger guard for instance.

rc

But what about holstering a SIG in SA mode with your shirt tail in the trigger guard?

Chuck ; ^ )

 

[Bovice]

But what about holstering a SIG in SA mode with your shirt tail in the trigger guard?

Chuck ; ^ )

This is my thought exactly. Single action on a SIG doesn't take much. 4 pounds and a little bit of travel. A swift reholstering motion with just enough snag in the wrong spot (such as a shirt) is going to make it fire.

Here's another tip, I like holstering with my stronghand thumb over the hammer. The snagging force on the trigger in DA would need to overcome the 10 pound pull of the trigger plus the resistance offered by your thumb. You'd notice something was wrong before it got worse.

 

[David E]

Bad. But not real bad.

The gun simply can't fire unless the trigger is held to the rear to depress the firing pin safety.

Not as bad as holstering a Glock with your shirt tail in the trigger guard for instance.

rc

Seems like that same shirt tail in the trigger guard of a cocked Sig will have the same result.

 

[jerkface11]

Seems like that same shirt tail in the trigger guard of a cocked Sig will have the same result.

They built it with a decocker with a reason. Not using it would be silly.

 

[BILLG]

Why would you ever try to holster a Da/Sa pistol that was cocked without first decocking it?